The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

[Hockeycowboy]

I think I will make a new thread soon to discuss this topic. How and why God became a man. I've been planning to do it for awhile.

That would be interesting. I'm assuming that you're saying that God the Father became a man; am I correct in my assumption?

Yes. God is only one person; unlike the trinity doctrine concept of "Three in one".

Well, we do agree, there is no trinity.

But then, your pov makes me wonder: Who was Jesus praying to all those times, addressing Him as his Father?

And, how do you explain John's words, "No one has ever seen the Father"?

And, when Jesus was dying, Who was he talking to, saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

At John 20:17, when he told Martha, "I am ascending to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father", to Whom was he referring?

There's so many more passages to consider.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The Spirit of God is holy. So they call this "the holy Spirit". It's that simple. You people make "the holy Spirit" out to be another person than God Himself. It's simply the Spirit of God which just so happens to be very holy. So we call this Spirit "the holy Spirit". Even John 4:24 makes clear that God is Spirit.

The first mention of the holy Spirit is Genesis 1:2 where we find it "fluttering" on the face of the deep. The water is symbolic of peoples, languages, nations etc (Revelation 17:15) ... The Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters is symbolic of God continually working on mankind to turn them to Him. This is why in Genesis 6:3 God says "My Spirit shall not always strive with man ... etc."

God's Spirit is constantly at work to turn people to Himself.

The holy Spirit is God's presence or God's breath/wind literally. He can send it out wherever He wishes and it is omnipresent. The holy Spirit is infinite. The holy Spirit is God in action. When God acts on anything it is "the holy Spirit". So hence, "God's finger" is true. Especially when God acts upon a human being. Such as in Judges 3:10. This is God moving upon or acting upon someone. Ruach Ha Qodesh.

Just as the Spirit hovered over the waters and then God spoke so that their was Light. So to the Spirit hovered over Mary(she the chosen vessel, the daughter of Adam) and again there was Light. The Messiah; the Son of God is the Light. (Isaiah 9:2) Born of the holy Spirit. Which is also translatable as the holy Wind or Breath. Just as God "breathed" upon Adam the breath of Life. So to the holy "Breath" of God was overshadowing Mary. Breathing the Word of Life(Jesus). (1 John 1:1)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

I said the holy Spirit was "the Father" because the holy Spirit is the Spirit that created the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary. This is why in Luke 1:35 we find that the holy Spirit overshadows her. Then in Matthew 1:18, she is found with child by the holy Spirit.

In Young's Literal translation we see that this is to mean she was found to have conceived "from" the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
18 And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,

And here in the English Man's Greek New Testament I find an extremely literal translation.


Now of Jesus Christ the birth thus was. Having been betrothed for his mother Mary to Joseph, before came together they she was found to be with child of[the] Spirit Holy.

Since the "of[the]" part is what you seem to be drawing into question; you can look that word up here.

In conclusion people should consider and believe that to believe Jesus was born of God is the same as to believe that Jesus was breathed out by God Himself. Jesus is the breath of Life. The Ruach Ha Qodesh.

The Ruach Ha Qodesh Is the Jewish term for God. Jesus is not God.

 

[74x12]

Well, we do agree, there is no trinity.

But then, your pov makes me wonder: Who was Jesus praying to all those times, addressing Him as his Father?

And, how do you explain John's words, "No one has ever seen the Father"?

And, when Jesus was dying, Who was he talking to, saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

At John 20:17, when he told Martha, "I am ascending to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father", to Whom was he referring?

There's so many more passages to consider.

Believe it or not; all of your questions boil down to the same basic question. This is going to be answered in the new thread I plan to create.

 

[Katzpur]

The Ruach Ha Qodesh Is the Jewish term for God. Jesus is not God.

Do you believe Him to be divine?

 

[74x12]

Jesus was special and different, as he was a sinless perfect human, but the scriptures evidently do not support the teaching you are promoting.
When Jesus yielded up his spirit, he spoke in harmony with scripture - the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.
Did you bother to read any of those scriptures? Am I right t suggest, you didn't?

Which ones support your ideas?

I've read the whole Bible numerous times. No worries.

Colossians definitely supports what lostwanderingsoul was saying. The fullness of God indwelled Jesus bodily.

 

[nPeace]

The Spirit of God is holy. So they call this "the holy Spirit". It's that simple. You people make "the holy Spirit" out to be another person than God Himself. It's simply the Spirit of God which just so happens to be very holy. So we call this Spirit "the holy Spirit". Even John 4:24 makes clear that God is Spirit.

Who said the holy spirit is another person? That won't be me.

The first mention of the holy Spirit is Genesis 1:2 where we find it "fluttering" on the face of the deep. The water is symbolic of peoples, languages, nations etc (Revelation 17:15) ... The Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters is symbolic of God continually working on mankind to turn them to Him. This is why in Genesis 6:3 God says "My Spirit shall not always strive with man ... etc."

People weren't alive yet at Genesis 1:2

God's Spirit is constantly at work to turn people to Himself.

The holy Spirit is God's presence or God's breath/wind literally. He can send it out wherever He wishes and it is omnipresent. The holy Spirit is infinite. The holy Spirit is God in action. When God acts on anything it is "the holy Spirit". So hence, "God's finger" is true. Especially when God acts upon a human being. Such as in Judges 3:10. This is God moving upon or acting upon someone. Ruach Ha Qodesh.

Just as the Spirit hovered over the waters and then God spoke so that their was Light. So to the Spirit hovered over Mary(she the chosen vessel, the daughter of Adam) and again there was Light. The Messiah; the Son of God is the Light. (Isaiah 9:2) Born of the holy Spirit. Which is also translatable as the holy Wind or Breath. Just as God "breathed" upon Adam the breath of Life. So to the holy "Breath" of God was overshadowing Mary. Breathing the Word of Life(Jesus). (1 John 1:1)

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

I said the holy Spirit was "the Father" because the holy Spirit is the Spirit that created the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary. This is why in Luke 1:35 we find that the holy Spirit overshadows her. Then in Matthew 1:18, she is found with child by the holy Spirit.

In Young's Literal translation we see that this is to mean she was found to have conceived "from" the Holy Spirit.

I don't see a need to argue here.
Cool.

Matthew 1:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
18 And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,

And here in the English Man's Greek New Testament I find an extremely literal translation.

Now of Jesus Christ the birth thus was. Having been betrothed for his mother Mary to Joseph, before came together they she was found to be with child of[the] Spirit Holy.

Since the "of[the]" part is what you seem to be drawing into question; you can look that word up here.

In conclusion people should consider and believe that to believe Jesus was born of God is the same as to believe that Jesus was breathed out by God Himself. Jesus is the breath of Life. The Ruach Ha Qodesh.

Could you explain what you mean by that conclusion - elaborate on it, I mean?

 

[Katzpur]

The first mention of the holy Spirit is Genesis 1:2 where we find it "fluttering" on the face of the deep. The water is symbolic of peoples, languages, nations etc (Revelation 17:15) ... The Spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters is symbolic of God continually working on mankind to turn them to Him. This is why in Genesis 6:3 God says "My Spirit shall not always strive with man ... etc."

I'm always kind of perplexed when people start in on what various things in the Bible symbolize. If ever there was ever anything subjective, it's "symbolism." One specific thing may symbolize ten different things, according to ten different people. Why is what you believe "spirit" symbolizes any more accurate than what anyone one believes it symbolizes?

 

[nPeace]

To me, what's clear is that if He had a divine Father, He was divine as well as mortal. Mary was indeed His Mother; God was indeed His Father. The word "Father" is not a meaningless label. Jesus Christ was the "Only Begotten Son" of God, and God did not beget any other human beings.

So was Jesus born?
If he was born, was he not begotten?
So he was begotten in heaven as a spirit, and begotten as a human on earth. He died as a human, and was quickened or raised as a spirit.
Is this not what scripture says?

If not, perhaps you can show me scriptures that do not support this.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Believe it or not; all of your questions boil down to the same basic question. This is going to be answered in the new thread I plan to create.

You write as if you are the definitive authority on this matter. I am a NON Trinitarian and have no trouble sorting things out. As a matter of fact, Moses DID talk to God face to face and numbers of other times not. I had not realized how devious and evil some of you are.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm always kind of perplexed when people start in on what various things in the Bible symbolize. If ever there was a word that was subjective, it's "symbolize." One specific thing may symbolize ten different things, according to ten different people. Why is what you believe "spirit" symbolizes any more accurate than what anyone one believes it symbolizes?

I am so mad, and upset that some people take a known and accepted truth and twist it so there is no semblance of its previous form. At least, when I was a Mormon, there was no disagreement about the Trinity, which to me is a total fantasy, just like Transubstantiation is.

I think I am too upset and if some of these stooges were within my reach, I'd have hand fulls of chest hair. Standing down now.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

On the other hand ... Matthew 1:18 is very clear about it. The holy Ghost/Spirit is the Father.

If we look at the parallel account @ Luke 1:35, it says in KJV, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is a literary device often used in the Scriptures, indicating a comparison. IOW, the Holy Spirit is the power of God in action.

Some versions in Matthew 1:18 say the child (was) "through" the Holy Spirit, which agrees with Luke.... so the HS was what God used to transfer Jesus' life into Mary's womb.

Wouldn't that imply Jesus was living before his prehuman existence? Yes. And He stated as much when he prayed at John 17:5..."And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." (ESV)
-- BibleHub.com

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I think I am too upset and if some of these stooges were within my reach, I'd have hand fulls of chest hair. Standing down now.

I'm sorry, but you made me laugh!

I know how easy it is to get upset, but we can look at these things as challenges for us to work on our own shortcomings, like self- control, or anger. I know.....and coping with others is something we all need to practice on.

I love your passion and candor!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Who was Jesus praying to all those times, addressing Him as his Father?

And, how do you explain John's words, "No one has ever seen the Father"?

And, when Jesus was dying, Who was he talking to, saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"?

At John 20:17, when he told Martha, "I am ascending to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father", to Whom was he referring?

There's so many more passages to consider.

Believe it or not; all of your questions boil down to the same basic question. This is going to be answered in the new thread I plan to create.

I should add, “How do you explain it, without putting a spin on it?”

Just take it, as it is in Greek.

 

[sojourner]

If you mean the scriptural doctrine, yes. The trinity doctrine teaches contrary - falsely claiming that Jesus is both fully God and man. No.

1) the doctrine does have its basis in scripture — or it wouldn’t be doctrine.
2) your argument was that Jesus was born human. That sent at odds with the doctrine — or with the Bible.

 

[Katzpur]

So was Jesus born?
If he was born, was he not begotten?
So he was begotten in heaven as a spirit, and begotten as a human on earth. He died as a human, and was quickened or raised as a spirit.
Is this not what scripture says?

If not, perhaps you can show me scriptures that do not support this.

The only part of this that I dispute is that I believe He was physically resurrected. Is this not what scripture says? What am I missing? You're trying to point something out to me where you believe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Katzpur]

You write as if you are the definitive authority on this matter. I am a NON Trinitarian and have no trouble sorting things out. As a matter of fact, Moses DID talk to God face to face and numbers of other times not. I had not realized how devious and evil some of you are.

Ellen, I agree with you that Moses DID talk to God face to face. There are many times when a verse of scripture can be interpreted in a number of different ways, even though only one way may be accurate. There are other times, though, that the Bible makes a very straightforward statement, one that must either be accepted or flat out ignored. It seems to me that it makes a whole lot more sense to just say, "That's one I just can't explain. I don't have an answer for you," than it does to deny it. There are verses of scripture that I can't explain. They don't seem to fit in with all of the other scriptures upon which my beliefs are based. But the fact that some people simply refuse to believe a simple, uncomplicated, unambiguous statement when they see one does not mean that they are devious and evil. When people just have to be right all the time, they can't bring themselves to back down on anything. Consider it a character flaw and not something worth ripping out chest hair over.

 

[Muffled]

If Jesus is God, Luke 2:40-56 could (should?) be read as,

"Now the parents of God went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when God was twelve years old, they went up according to custom and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, God stayed behind in Jerusalem. The parents of God did not know it, but supposing God to be in their company they went a day's journey, and they sought God among their kinsfolk and acquaintances and when they did not find God, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking God. After three days they found God in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions and all who heard God were amazed at the understanding of God and His answers. And when they saw God they were astonished and the mother of God said to him, "God, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And God said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" And they did not understand the saying which God spoke to them. And God went down with them and came to Nazareth and God was obedient to them and the mother of God kept all these things in her heart. And God increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man."
​

I believe I pray to Jesus not to God for now the name is above all names. That should tell you why it is the way it is.

 

[Muffled]

NOPE! I started out a non before I even knew what that was. Then one day some fool told me that God and Jesus were one. I told the person that I didn't see it that way, and he said I did not have salvation. Who was he to say, is he God? Not ever planning to back down on this.

I believe if Jesus is just a man then he can't save you but if He is God then He can because only God can save.

 

[Muffled]

Yes. Nonduality makes no sense using dualistic language. You can do the same thing with God himself, talking how the Omnipresent God isn't certain places, like in us. It's ridiculous when you think about it. Yet, this is how all Christians speak of God, "up there", and such. A pure contradiction of terms. God is everywhere, but not everywhere.....

I believe logically speaking that if He is everywhere then He is also up there.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I believe I pray to Jesus not to God for now the name is above all names. That should tell you why it is the way it is.

If Jesus prayed to the Father that is good enough for me. We should pray to the Father but in Jesus name. Jesus is our go between and will carry the prayer to the Father.