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Featured The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Well, we are not talking about math. If we were then trinity could never exist as it would be as clear as daylight that Jesus cannot possibly be Almighty God. It is exactly BECAUSE Satan has deluded the many why he has to be brought into the fray. Without stating his part in the great delusion it cannot be made aware WHERE and WHY things in Christianity are in such confusion. It’s like someone disputing why their cup of tea is so weak and no one mentioning that the tea maker hadn’t put any tea in the cup - it was just water.
    Yes, you could just say ‘There’s no TEA in there’ or you could say, ‘The TEAMAKER didn’t put any TEA in there’. But at SOME POINT IN TIME, and in order to prevent further TEA-LESS TEAs, the person RESPONSIBLE needs to be outed and ‘retrained’!

    So, without understand WHY the world is in disarray, in order to see the potential end of a system, to understand how to avoid badness, wickedness, and to know the true path, one needs to know WHO is the problem causer - and it is certainly a SPIRITUAL MATTER. You are not going to SEE the “Team Maker”.
     
    #21 Soapy, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  2. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I have never managed to think of Trinitarianism as not being monotheism.

    Not that it is a big deal, or even a good thing, that it is indeed monotheism.
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    In fact, it does not.
     
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  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The problem with some of the analogies here, is that they don't address the different identities of the parts they are claiming are "unified". person may be composed of a head, body two arms and two legs, but the arm doesn't speak to the head as though it's a separate identity.

    I could similarly argue that any Canaanite or Greek/Roman pantheon is really one god, with many parts. One part takes care of the grain, one part takes care of death, one part takes care of war, etc. These types of pantheons are made up of gods who lord over different domains. But we wouldn't accept that because each of those gods have their own identity - they converse with each other.

    Another way to say it is maybe that parts of an individual system may be unified, but they aren't singular. The system which unites them is what's singular, but the system that unites them also has no self-identity, because it's simply a system.

    So is it monotheism? I think the correct term according to Wikipedia is soft-polytheism.

    This is contrasted with "soft" polytheism, which holds that gods may be aspects of only one god, that the pantheons of other cultures are representative of one single pantheon, psychological archetypes or personifications of natural forces.
    -source
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Inodj har-ek Horu
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    Imv, if it were monotheism, I'm almost sure it wouldn't have to go shouting about how it's monotheism all the time, nor would there have been arguments for the past 2,000 years on whether it is.

    There is a godly deity, a man deity and a spirit deity and they all do completely different things. They even have conversations with each other.
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I think this varies from person to person.

    Trinitarianism is inherently contradictory, IMO. Different people will resolve the contradiction in different ways.

    How many corners does a square circle have?
     
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  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Trinity is monotheistic in idealism only.

    It is so ill-defined that it has to patch itself up with creedal straps.

    It has no beginning to end purpose for:
    • ‘The Son’, who:
      • plays no part pre-creation (God is alone!!)
      • said to be ‘BORN’ then ‘NOT BORN’ and, ‘ETERNALLY BORN’ and even worse, latterly, being ‘EVERLASTINGLY BEING BORN BY GOD’!!!
      • Chooses to be NOT GOD (according to the trinity version of Phil 2) but lies about it by BEING GOD while pretending he doesn’t know things which GOD ALONE knows (Do you notice that there’s no reference to whether the Holy Spirit knows the day and hour of the Sons return...! ‘But the FATHER ALONE’!!)
      • DIES...
      • Raised up again BY GOD!
      • Seated in Heaven NEXT TO GOD
      • Is seen in vision STANDING next to the SEATED GOD - yet no third person present (Seated or Standing are hugely significant symbolic positions)
      • Is GIVEN power to rule (for a period) BY GOD (yet he is? God!!) and then HANDS THAT POWER BACK to God... can God give up power?
      • Is finally REWARDED with BECOMING king and ruler over CREATION... can God BECOME? I thought GOD ‘IS’?
    • ‘Holy Spirit’
      • is never seen as personally independent - it does as GOD sets it to do. It is USED by Jesus and directed BY Jesus AFTER GOD puts it upon him to make him ‘CHRIST’ (the Anointed One).
      • It is also USED in smaller order BY the Apostles AFTER it is ‘poured out’ onto the Apostles at Pentecost. Would you say a river is a person because it seeks out its own path to the sea? It is completely within reason that it gives unto each as much as each can bear - this does not require being a ‘person’
      • and certainly, if it is ‘God’ then it is A GOD who is passed around by the OTHER GODS!
    • ‘The Father’:
      • is ALWAYS IN CHARGE...
      • Never leaves his throne
      • Never seen
      • In control of the Holy Spirit to ‘give it’ as a GIFT to the apostles
      • Gives HIS ANGELS and HIS beloved To Jesus (‘They were yours and you gave them to me...’)
      • Blessed Jesus (Only the greater can bless the lesser)
      • Gives HIS power to Jesus and receives it back
      • Gives as a reward HIS CREATION to Jesus to rule over
    As you can see, only the Father is ALMIGHTY. Only the Father is never seen, only the Father is a constant.
    He is never sent, never receives (except what he gave in the face place!) and never ordered by any other.

    Who is GOD?
    Only the Father: ‘Father, this means life that they should believe in you, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and in Jesus Christ whom you sent’

    This is an emphatic from from Jesus acknowledges that the Father ALONE is ALMIGHTY GOD, and that Jesus is the ANOINTED SERVANT sent to do good BY HIM...
    And that only belief in this order of things can bring eternal life to those who claim to believe - no ifs no buts!!!

    And do you notice that eternal life DOES NOT REQUIRE BELIEF IN THE HOLY SPIRIT???
    How can trinity claim three gods or three who are one god yet one of those gods or in god states we only need to believe in two of them and heirachially in the Father as God and the Son as Christ... surely a co-equal god would proclaim all three as a requirement for belief and in co-equal order of power and authority?
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    It is hard to read with caps. If you want to emphasis use quotes or italics. I can read though.

    Follow this logic before you reply.

    1. Creator is the source
    2. Jesus is the messenger
    3. Spirit is love and grace

    a.
    Creator has a law (Law of moses)

    b.
    Creator and Law of Moses are one.
    His law/message/Word (please read) can't be separate from himself.

    c.
    OT. the Creator told the people the law of moses. They disobeyed
    The creator kept "correcting" his people until one day:

    d.
    The creator had an idea. He says "let me make my Law/My Word/My Self incarnate/flesh" (Please read) so I can be among the people personally to tell them this new fulfilled law of salvation since they didn't listen to me before.

    e.
    So he came incarnate.
    The creator (Message/Law/Word) became incarnate/flesh as jesus christ/the WORD (see the play on words-no pun?)

    Trinity:
    The creator/Law and the Word/Messager/law incarnate cannot be separated.
    They are one and the same.

    Note:
    That's what incarnated is. It's not saying that the flesh is a a separate person but the flesh is a "copy" of the source in which it represents (lack of better words)

    That is all the trinity means. It's not a fancy mystical word. Tri-means three and -nity puts the three into one unit.

    You have the father/creator
    His Law/Word
    The incarnation of this law/The Word of god (Jesus)

    Trinitarians do not separate the Word from the Creator.

    Non-trinitarians do.

    One person isn't right or wrong than the other. Just one wants to join the creator and word and the other sees the word incarnate and separates them because incarnation can't be spirit.

    If you think about it, it will make sense regardless if you disagree with it

    I can post scriptures but I don't like reading tons and tons of scriptures without basic conversation.

    My questions:
    Why satan?
    Why can you disagree without putting the blame on someone else?
     
    #28 Unveiled Artist, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  9. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    It is exactly the ‘different ways that trinity is resolved that keeps it going. Each time trinity is found to be false, supporters of it modify their claim to cover the discovered fallacy. Hence two thousand years (or so) later, many many sticking plasters have covered the trinity fallacy that no one really knows now what it stands for:
    • Where was the Son before creation (Genesis only speaks of God and the Holy Spirit... ‘GOD AND...the Holy Spirit!!!)
    • Trinity never speaks of purpose of Jesus’ REWARD, as in Rulership over Creation - which WOULD be a DEMOTION from a Heavenly RULERSHIP
    • Trinity never explains why Jesus NEVER claimed to BE GOD: ‘I did not call myself God... I ONLY called myself the Son of God’
    • Trinity disingenuously claims Jesus called himself by the NAME of God (How does ‘I Am’ make someone God?????), in fact ‘I Am’ would only be the MEANING of the NAME, ‘Yhwh’... ‘I Am’ is MERELY an ENGLISH LANGUAGE interpretation of the HEBREW. In the very next chapter, Didn’t the man born blind use the term, ‘I Am’ when asked he was indeed that man... why aren’t Trinitarians claiming he too was saying he was God? Strange, eh!!
    • Trinity has a very strange and completely unsatisfactory explanation of how Jesus-God could die... it actually claims that Jesus ‘DID NOT DIE’... then backtracks when asked to explain the odd statement that completely counters scriptures... why do they hold EASTER ceremonies and resurrection day etc, if they say he didn’t die... did the apostles lie?
    • Jesus describes the Holy Spirit as a ‘Comforter’, an ‘Advocate’ which ‘Takes of what is mine and give it to you!’... is Almighty God an ‘Advocate’??? Really?? And if the Holy Spirit is Almighty God, how and WHAT does Jesus have that ‘Holy Spirit Almighty GOD’ did not have??
     
  10. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    1. Creator is the source
    2. Jesus is the messenger
    3. Spirit is love and grace​
    My friend, you have just described a heirachially system with two persons and a ‘thing’.

    Father is indeed the Creator. ‘Father’ exactly means,
    • ‘He who brings into being,
      he who brings forth, and,
    • he who is Head’
    It is impossible for another to be ‘beside him’.

    Jesus is the Anointed Messenger (Isaiah 42:1). The Father stated this as prophecy from how long before. God said he would send a saviour - and, ‘in the fullness of time’ he did!

    God is not a messenger... God has Spirits to be his messengers. Jesus is sent to make amends for the sin of Adam... Jesus was made and born as they last Adam’. Adam was born holy and sinless (why do people never know this!?) but fell away to sin. Jesus was his replacement, born holy and sinless - hence the title of ‘Adam’ (image of God in flesh’ but no one claims Adam is God!)

    I notice you failed to person-up the Holy Spirit. You say it is ‘Love’ and ‘Grace’. In fact the Holy Spirit is way more than this ... it is the exact power and authority of the Father, God. It is sent by God via Jesus to the apostles (‘stay in Jerusalem until I send you the gift of the Father’: Pentecost). The Holy Spirit empowers those of a Holy Spirit to do good works... notice that Electricity is a powerful force that can be used for good works... that doesn’t make electricity a Person!

    If you are trying to prove a trinity... you have perfectly failed!
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I am explaining what they mean by the tri- nity. I'm not sure if you're understanding what I'm saying:

    What do you mean?

    Intermediary (John 3:16 pretty much sums everything) represents (or is a messenger of) the source. So, they are one and the same "but not each other"

    Trinity says intermediary, creator, grace are one and the same unit (hence hte tri- ) NOT are each other.

    Yes. I didn't say he didn't.

    I said jesus is the messenger.

    The rest I think you're repeating as if I'm presenting the same arguments as other trinitarians. Please read this.

    You got the point, right?

    Holy spirit is love and grace, right?

    'cause you're not reading what I'm saying.

    1. Creator
    2. Law
    3. Creator is the law (English language simile)
    4. OT: No one listened to the law/creator
    5. NT: Creator/law made himself/the law incarnate/flesh
    6. He did this to have a personal relationship with christians
    7. The fulfilled/new law is salvation
    9. Fulfilled Law (creator's law) is WORD (play on words), Christ himself; the Passion

    Trinity just means three in one unit nothing more.

    If jesus, creator, and spirit were each other it would be a unity.
    The christian faith does't teach unity it teaches the trinity.

    Do you understand the difference between trinity and unity?
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    @Soapy

    No one listened to creator's law-his word in the OT, so he made his word incarnate (man/flesh) so that it can "dwell among the people" and have a personal relationship with them. You can say the word/christ "of god/creator" saves people or you can say the word/creator's fulfilled law saves people. Either way, the creator saves people whether it be used by the messenger as in the NT or the creator himself as repeatedly done in the OT.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is monotheism in essence but sometimes becomes polytheistic in concept. When people take the idea of persons and entities too far so that it becomes separate gods then it is polytheistic. The Muslims are warned not to think of the Trinity as three gods but they do anyway.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is three gods and incorrect.
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are incorrect. Jesus did equate Himself with God.
     
  16. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    3-in-1 God = 3/1 = 3 = 300% = Fully God + Fully God + Fully God. Walks and Talks like the Value of 3 is what I perceive.

    Commandments of God are of The Father
    Will of God is of The Father.
    Origination is of The Father.
    Supreme Authority is of The Father.

    Seems like Father only true God according to John 17:3 and 1John 5:20.

    looked up "only true" before and is in alignment with Exodus 20:3
     
  17. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member

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    A righteous servant or follower is equated as or like their Master ;

    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
     
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Actually it's not different as the Trinitarian concept is not in any way "idolatry". As I've posted many times lately on this, and the key to understanding this is to look up the concept of "essence" as used by some of the Greek philosophers that eventually was used in the types of symbolic writing that was used in the writing of scriptures in Koine Greek. Even the Wiki article on "essence" is actually quite helpful.

    To put it another way, this concept has it that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God the Father but are of God the Father's "essence".
     
  19. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    False. If the they were on why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" If they are one person who is Jesus talking to? This clearly shows that Jesus and his God have 2 different wills and 2 different "plans" therefore, they cannot be 1 person. Unless, you want to say that Jesus is crazy therefore god is crazy therefore only crazy people follow crazy people.

    Seems the Christian God do not understand basic logic, does this supposedly the creator of all mankind not know how to communicate with his own creation? I can accept that somethings in religion are metaphorical and not always easy to understand however, i think the very main and basic concept of God would be one that should be logical and understood by all.

    No, its still polytheism.

    Just because people can argue something does not mean its true, rational or valid.
     
  20. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    Having trouble with words and logic it seems, huh?
     
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