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The Trinity and Panentheism

Discussion in 'Pantheism-Panentheism DIR' started by IsaiahX, Nov 17, 2018.

  1. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

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    To begin with, I believe that the universe is made of three distinct aspects: consciousness, form, and energy. For example, consider humans. We are composed of a consciousness, a physical body, and a certain life energy that fuels both our minds and bodies, at least in my opinion. These three aspects fuel each other mutually. The body has gives instrument to the consciousness through the brain and to life through systems such as metabolism. The life fuels the consciousness and body and the consciousness directs and controls the body and life.

    I believe a similar doctrine is present within the Bible's description of the Trinity.

    Consider the Father. He directs and controls the trinity (Luke 22:42) as the mind directs the body. He is invisible (John 6:46) as the mind is invisible, but shows himself through the Son (Colossians 1:15) as the mind displays itself through the workings of the body.

    Now Consider the Spirit. He is described as being of life (John 6:63), power (Numbers 11:17) and given the allusion of wind (John 3:8). Even the Greek and Hebrew words for spirit can also mean wind and breath, I believe.

    Now Consider the Son. He is described as containing all of God (Colossians 2:9) as the body holds the mind and life. He stated that he is the express image of the Father (John 14:9), as whoever views someone's exterior actions lets them discern their mind and intentions. From His divine form all forms are created and sustained (Acts 17:28).

    In my opinion, the three Members of the Trinity generate the whole of reality with their own essence. The father is all consciousness, mind, and will. The Spirit is all life, energy, and movement, fueling all change and animacy in the universe. The Son is all form and matter, generating the whole of the physical world.

    I would love to hear some of your thoughts on the matter.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Well. I dont believe in god so my spin on it is a bit different.

    I guess you can say I am a pantheist. I never broke down my spirituality into pie charts until I came on RF.

    Definitions:

    Soul: Who we are (personality etc defined by the core of our actions)

    Spirit: How we act (The motor and proces of action)

    Body: What does the acting

    Thoughts: Interpretation of actions

    Mind: Source of actions (foundation or seat of them)

    I guess trinity would be the combination of spirit and soul. The personality of god as well as his spirit in action. As for the thoughts, thats based on culture and biblical history etc. Body (of christ) are the people acting together as soul and spirt of christ. Since god is not mind, that would not be part of the equation. Of course, each religion defines these terms different but no one is alien to another so in my opinion this is the basic consensus.
     
  3. Marcion

    Marcion Tantra-Yoga Universalist

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    That sound very much like the three gunas, Sattva ("I am"), Rajas ("I do") and Tamas ("I have done").
    In every object (every being) in the universe these three states of being are present in different degrees.
    In living beings there is a tendency for Tamas to shift into Rajas and for Rajas to shift into Sattva.
    Through this shift the living beings get to be ever more subtle until the point when they realise their origin of pure being (Pure Consciousness) and they lose even their sense of individual self.

    Before the universe started, the three guna's were still in perfect balance within the Mind of the Supreme Consciousness (which does not need a body). As the balance got lost, from these miriads of triangles the creation sprang forth in the Big Bang and matter and energy were formed.
     
  4. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

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    The rest of the post seemed sensible to me, but I do not know why you would say that God has no mind. Even in pantheism, God would have a mind because beings in Him (the universe) have minds, so that would at least be involved in the equation. At least thats my way of seeing things.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    God isnt a mind. Actually, I feel mind is a catch term like consciousness. Id think the (biblical) god is akin to spirit. But as for having thoughts and interacting, Im not familar with any god that can do that. From how I see pantheism god is all things. Universe doesnt talk nor think. Maybe you are referring to pantheneism where all is god and above things at the same time.

    As for universe is god, that isnt biblical. Creation isnt the creator. By definition it isnt as well as scripturelly. Mystics, maybe but not in the traditional sense of the religion.

    How does a universe have a mind?
    In pantheism all is god. Everything physical is god. How can it think or be aware or have cognition? I understand what you mean with energy but mind?
     
  6. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

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    It is interesting how different religious beliefs resemble each other.

    This reminds me of the biblical promise of the Father, who I believe to be the supreme consciousness, becoming "all in all" and absorbing all things into Himself:

    "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."

    This reminds me of the concept of the Trinity residing together before the beginning of space and time.

    This reminds me of the Christian Doctrine of the Word (Jesus) being manifested to create the physical world.


     
  7. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

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    People in the universe have minds. If pantheist believe that the universe is God, but God does not have a mind, where did they get it from?

    Pantheism may not be biblical, but Panentheism is allowed. The only neccesary difference between the biblical God and creation is that God is infinite and perfect, while the universe is not. They can still be made of the same substance. We even get verses like this:

    "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

    - Ephesians 4:6, ESV​
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    God in pantheism, isnt the abrahamic god (nor Hindu. nor Pagan). Its not specific to a religion especially abrahamic.

    We're in a monotheistic world. Before monotheism was polytheism; so, the word god has always been around. God isnt a jewish word, though; so, its not christian if going by jesus view. If going by apostles, I can kinda see that especially when christianity became mixed with greek and roman paganism etc.

    But, no. The concept of god has been around for centuries and then some.

    Since there are so many pagan religions, Im not sure the gradual process of god. I took art history and found out how christianity changed in its concept of god especially with trinitarianism etc. But probably other non-triniatrian historicans can probably help you out more.

    Wait. But you said god is the universe so if that is true, the universe must be perfect?

    The quote is gods spirit. He is the breathe of all creation (breathe of life in Genesis) and who gave breathe for all to live and move and grow. Its speaking of his action in relation to his creation. Pantheism says god is his creation not acts nor foundation of it.

    I think the term you are looking for is
    Panentheism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy
    The Basics of Philosophy › branch_pane... Panentheism.

    Panentheism:

    (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a philosophical stance which posits that God (or Ultimate Reality or The All) interpenetrates every part of observable Nature, and extends beyond it.

    For me, I dont understand what god is "ultimate reality or the all or something greater". These terms dont register what a god is. I mean, even jews dont descibe him so I dont know how christians got his nature.
     
  9. IsaiahX

    IsaiahX Dreamer and Oneironaut

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    That doesn't really answer my question.

    I mean, if you have a mind, and you are a part of the universe, that means that the universe has conciousness in it. The universe would have to have a mind, because beings in the universe have minds, those beings being part of the universe. According to pantheism, your mind, as well as all minds in the universe, are god. You partially possess the 'all-mind'.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hm.
    I see what you are saying. I honestly dont know; I never looked into it. But my guess is that we have different conscousness as with different living. So an animals awareness to things and how he interprets those things are different than humans. If plants had consciousness or purposeful awareness, Id assume they have different ones too.

    That or the spirit rather than mind is what is in all but the mind part is only in humans given we, as far as we know, can think and train our awareness while animals and plants cannot on their own.

    So animals and plants, Id assume, have abasic awareness (spirit) and humans have conscious awareness (thoughts and spirit). As for where mind comes from, I dont know metaphysically. Everything we think and do is processed through our minds and the physical process our brain. Anything outside of that, especially greater, almighty, etc, I ahve no clue.

    Also, it would depend on how you defind mind. If it just is without our culture, bible, thoughts, and interpretations, its just awareness. Its spirit. But, since there are religious definitions of it, I guess you can make it metaphysical.

    I see mind as the seat of our soul and spirit (defined in my first post). Its not greater nor almighty, it just has a function in our survival just as all other components. Other living beings and plants dont have our type of awarness and vis versa. But our conscious thoughts doesnt make us better and mind processes doesnt make us more intelligent,

    so that leads me back to my question of why almighty and greater. The closest I can get is consciousness is awareness of thought and ones own life. Thats in all living beings and nature.

    But thoughts? The bible? Almighty? etc... That goes over my head.
     
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