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Featured The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good And Bad

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Earthling, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    You are filling in the blanks with whatever you want to make your story hold together.
    You have not answered my objection that he cannot know what good and evil are until he eats of the tree. He may know he will die, and many other things, but he cannot discern whether they are good or evil until he has the knowledge of what good and evil actually is. And that requires him to eat of the fruit first.
     
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  2. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    No. You are missing the point. You are taking your interpretation or an interpretation that you heard, thinking that the Bible is an old collection of moral stories like Aesop's Fables or something. It isn't.

    So, if I hear your interpretation and I ask why you have to tell me how it fits with the rest of the Bible. For example, then, why did Jehovah Create the nation of Israel? Why does God allow suffering? etc.
    What I'm telling you comes from knowing the entire story instead of just one little part and then another until you have an unsolved puzzle. I have the puzzle complete. Thus your confusion.

    0. God existed with out creation, before time. In order to share his existence he created his first born only begotten son, Michael. Michael became his master worker, and the heavens, then angels, then Earth and it's inhabitants were created.
    1. God created Adam in his own image, like he had the angels.
    2. Adam named all of the animals, which means he was around a considerable amount of time and would have seen them die. Animals die because they weren't created in God's image.
    3. Adam was told by God not to bother the specific tree in question, or he, like the animals, would die. Adam knew from observing what death was. If he didn't want to go through that he only had to leave the tree alone.
    4. Adam was alone for a while, then God created Eve. Adam, or God, had told Eve about the tree.
    5. An angel, the most beautiful of angels, was put in charge of protecting the garden, the angel deceived Eve by pretending to be a serpent speaking to her, like a puppet. He convinced her to eat. Adam, being afraid of being alone, decided to eat as well.
    6. The result was that they then became ashamed of being naked. They had no reason to be. God had created them that way, but now, they were confused by making their own decisions about what was good and what was bad.

    The above was a sort of prologue which takes us up to Genesis 3:15, which is the first prophecy of Jesus Christ. There is the short prologue which tells us about creation and the fall of man, then it kicks in with the rest of the story from there, Genesis 3:15 to the end of Revelation.

    It's confusing because it sounds like God is punishing the snake, Eve and Adam, and that is partly true, at least with Adam and Eve, but there's much more to it. God is also referring to what would follow, with Satan, Jesus, God's followers and Satan's followers. Satan would bruise Jesus' head, but it wouldn't be a fatal wound. Only a wound of the heal. Jesus, however, would fatally wound Satan with a head wound. The seed of the woman is the followers of God, the seed of Satan are the adversaries. Satan would succeed in killing Jesus, but only temporarily, and in the end Jesus would destroy Satan and his seed, or army, consisting of angels and humans.

    So. . . . God allows mankind to go on deciding things for himself, so that not only mankind but the angels as well, can see for themselves whether or not Satan was telling the truth to Eve. A considerable amount of time passes.

    0. God needs to select a people for two important reasons. First, to teach them of the sin of Adam's sin and their inability to fulfill the law of justice. He needs to teach them how they need a savior, or messiah.
    1. He finds Abraham (Abram). God though that if he was going to send his son to be sacrificed for these people then Abraham ought to have enough faith in God to sacrifice his own son, Isaac, knowing that God could bring him back. Resurrect him. When God is convinced that Abraham has the faith to begin this nation, he stops him from sacrificing Isaac.
    2. Once the people are enough in numbers to begin the task, Moses is selected to lead them to a place where they can establish God's kingdom on Earth. They take over the land, usually giving their enemies first the opportunity to join them, though sometime God knows the people are too much trouble due to their history of bloodthirsty war and vile religious practices. Though God instructs the people of Israel to give some the opportunity to join them they are instructed not to allow those people who refuse to influence them with the vile practices that they have left behind.
    3. From the beginning there are problems with the people not doing what they are told, but eventually they get to the promised land.
    4. God gives the people the law by gathering them together and having it read to them, and they agree to abide by it, but they repeatedly fail. Part of this is insisting they have a human king like the other nations. God allows some of their suggestions.
    5. The people are told that blood is the life, or soul. If a man's blood is spilled and he dies the blood of the one spilling it then must be spilled. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul. Since Adam's blood was spilled, in effect, by sin, i.e. his eventual death, only the blood of a similar person, being born without sin could be spilled to serve justice and bring about life everlasting without sin, i.e., death.
    6. A very strict public genealogical record is kept so that when the messiah comes there will be no doubt who he is. It points to only one person.
    7. Due to religious and political reasons the chosen people are confused and reject the messiah, so the original invitation of life everlasting is expanded to include people of all the nations. Pentecost is a demonstration of this. For a time the disciples spread the good news to the people of the nations, and for this brief time, including when Michael came to earth in human form to eventually give his blood miracles took place to demonstrate God's doing all of this.
    8. Jesus returns to heaven as Michael, and eventually wars with Satan and his angels, and they are cast out of Heaven, causing a great deal of trouble on Earth knowing they haven't got much time.
    9. Eventually God destroys the wicked system Satan has created on Earth, Satan is imprisoned, there is a resurrection of people who haven't had the opportunity to know all of this and 1,000 years pass. Then Satan is released to give those people an alternative choice. Destruction. Many will choose destruction.
    10. The meek inherit the earth and live forever upon it without sin, death or sickness.
     
  3. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    For having the knowledge of good and evil the were banished from the garden. For disobeying God Adam was to toil the earth and Eve would suffer in childbirth and all that stuff. Two separate things.
     
  4. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    I'm not sure I agree. Could you elaborate?
     
  5. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Genesis 3:16-17 give the results of the disobedience of eating the fruit for Adam and Eve. Notice it says Adam's punishment was for hearkening to the voice of his wife. Implied by context is Eve hearkening to the voice of the serpent. Genesis 3:22-24 shows the consequences of eating the fruit. Not hearkening to God's voice received one result. Actually having the knowledge caused a separate result.
     
    #45 sandy whitelinger, Jun 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
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  6. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Questions...

    Why did God put the tree there? Why did God create the possibility of such a consequential disobedience that Adam would lose his home? Why call the tree the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil if it really was the tree of sovereignty?

    My read...

    This story beautifully describes the experience we all have of falling into our first great sin or transgression...we go from not really understanding what right and wrong are, that it is more than simply doing what your parents tell you or some authority tells you...to understanding that moral action comes from a feeling you have inside and that encompasses not just yourself but all of your people. Adam and Even just had each other but they clearly didn't understand how moral corruption would affect them both until they "took that knowledge (of the fruit...) into themselves". They were responsible for what happened, but they were also naive. They sinned only partially in forethought. This is no less than anyone of us has done or will do again.

    No we really "don't get it" until we fall as we all do at some point. This isn't a condemnation of us as human beings but a fact of our experience. After all God created us and all of our potential...for good or ill. He planted the tree in a garden area amidst a world otherwise without such heavenly blessings. The tree was a big shiny button saying "push me" smack dab in the middle of it all. How could it be any other way? Our suffering seems like something we might escape...if only we didn't do...
     
  7. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Because not becoming immortal is essential to the experience of not only good and evil but of being human. The goddess tradition of the time incorporated the idea that life, death and rebirth were the way of things...but the authors of Genesis actively sought to replace that idea with the idea of eternal life under a heavenly LORD.

    It is, in fact, our experience that we are subject to death. It is great story-telling to have the opportunity to experience immortality just beyond your fingertips...just as the opportunity not to get kicked out of one's immature paradise might have been avoided if only...
     
  8. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff, can you suggest a good book that covers this? Thanks!
     
  9. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    In Genesis 3:2 Eve was able to reproduce closely the words that God had told Adam so she knew what Adam knew.

    But let us look more closely...

    From the NIV Genesis 2:16-17 (Bible Hub)...
    And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    Eve's version from Genesis 3:2-3:

    The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”

    Note the difference...instead of calling it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, she called it the tree in the middle of the garden. Obviously she did not recall or did not get the full report...or she and/or Adam didn't know what is this...good...and evil and so didn't use those terms as they were foreign to their understanding.
     
  10. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Its a nice story, but it is an emendation of the original one told by the authors who wrote the story we have originally in Genesis.
     
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  11. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    You're being very charitable in your assessment.
    I am inclined to see delusional hubris, yet another Abrahamic religionist rewriting the Scripture into a sort of docudrama. A reCreation of God, in the image of the author.
    Tom
     
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  12. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I think that the best of scripture reveals each of our personal biases...but this OP takes as a giant assumption that we are all going to buy into the additional backstory material he is drawing from.

    I prefer to stick with what most people have at their disposal...that is enough and doesn't require special considerations as to what one holds as relevant to this story in Genesis.
     
  13. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    None of this answers the question of how a person who has no knowledge of good and evil can be expected to know eating of the tree is evil. If they had knowledge of good and evil, then eating of the fruit would be irrelevant.
    I think that the disconnect between us begins further back.......You are assuming that there is a god and that you can know what the god wants or expects. Furthermore, you are assuming the god if it exists has good intentions and is entirely forthcoming and truthful. You have no way of knowing those things.
     
  14. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    The tree didn't represent knowledge, either of good or bad, it represented who had the authority to decide what was good and bad. Man or God.

    You can argue, rightfully so, that God didn't possess knowledge of what it was like to be evil. Neither did man. Neither of them had observed or experienced evil, or bad (same thing).

    None of that is an issue. What we are discussing is what does the text say. If God were nonexistent and the work was fictional the meaning would remain the same.
     
  15. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    RabbiO,
    God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, in the middle of the Garden, Genesis 2:16,17.
    Evidently, Adam wanted to make sure that Eve did not eat of the tree, so Adam told Eve not to eat of the tree, not even touch the tree, as Eve told Satan, when he asked her about eating of the tree, Genesis 3:1-5.
     
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