The Tragedy Of Transgendered Youth

[Salvador]

Men have assaulted people in public toilets many times without feeling the need to claim to be a woman temporarily.

Of course, nothing is going to stop anybody who is determined enough to enter any public restroom; however, some would-be sexual harassers though might be deterred from entering into a women's restroom if they are prohibited by law to be there. Right?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

In other words, the relationship has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of each group, but rather the fact that both groups are treated like crap by others.

"because of unusual or non-confirming gender expectations" but otherwise, yes, an accident of history, like I said. Why? What's your point?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Of course, nothing is going to stop anybody who is determined enough to enter any public restroom; however, some would-be sexual harassers though might be deterred from entering into a women's restroom if they are prohibited by law to be there. Right?

They're already prohibited from sexually assaulting people. If mere legal threats were going to stop them, they'd already be stopped. Your ad hoc claims are getting less and less coherent. Please stop.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Your opinion of my communication skills or mentality is irrelevant to the valid reason I've presented why men shouldn't be allowed in the women's restroom. I've made my point perfectly clear already, I've got nothing more to add into this discussion, so at least we can agree this is a good finishing point for us with this discussion. Thank you for your lively conversation. I appreciated this.

And I've pointed out why your reasoning is flawed. If you want to stop here, you're welcome.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shoplifters though are more inconspicuous than a man trespassing into a women's restroom. Right?

Not always. In my experience, some are sly and pretty much impossible to catch, some are good at playing the waiting game, and some are just plain obvious and don't even seem to try to cover it up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Your opinion of my communication skills or mentality is irrelevant to the valid reason I've presented why men shouldn't be allowed in the women's restroom.

Have ya realized no one is saying men should be able to go into the women's restroom? Did you not notice when I pointed out that even transfriendly places have policies against men deciding to "identify" as a woman for the day to use the women's locker room/restroom (either gender, really. They are cool with transgender people but not with people jumping back and forth)?
And it's something most men won't do, for a number of reasons. Most men aren't pigs. Most men won't wear anything a woman wears. Most men won't go into the women's room due to embarrassment and modesty alone - they also tend to view it as inappropriate behavior. Those who would probably, most likely, aren't concerned about laws, policies, ethics, signs, cameras, or decency.
But, if anything, it seems sexual crimes are committed less often in a public restroom.

 

[Prestor John]

This is what I tend to default to when people ask because it includes a ton of research, it's what clinicians tend to use as a guide, and it's free. Appendices are what you'll want to look at. The rest is highly informative, but it is there where the outcomes of treatment are covered. You may also be interested in the section on mental health, as it presents guidelines for mental health clinicians to use should a client present with gender dysphoria.
Standards of Care - WPATH World Professional Association for Transgender Health

Thank you for the information. I am currently reading it.

Can I come to you with any questions or concerns about it?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you for the information. I am currently reading it.

Can I come to you with any questions or concerns about it?

Yes.

 

[Prestor John]

Before I address your recent post I just wanted you to know that I am currently reading the information in the link you shared and I posted my last comment before realizing you had written this one too.

I understand if you do not want to discuss my questions and concerns about it.

I am going to finish it though, but so far it's just a narrative. I haven't seen the supporting evidence for the claims it is making.

For example, in the part where it claims that being transgender is a matter of diversity and not pathology, they quote a portion of WPATH's statement "urging the de-psychopathologization of gender nonconformity worldwide", which was,

“the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.”

This is basically WPATH saying, "We don't think it should be considered a mental illness, so please change it", which is not convincing at all.

Hopefully it gets into the evidence you claimed was there. I really hope so.

That is giving us grief.

I understand this and I mean no offense when I say that I wish reality didn't upset you and other transgender people so.

We don't poison ourselves, we don't mutilate ourselves, and thanks for making it obvious you didn't consider the information I provided.

First off, my disagreeing with the information you provided (so far as I have read) does not mean I have not considered it.

This is an issue I take with the "trasngender discussion" in general.

Members of the transgender community believe that if anyone disagrees with them about biology or objective reality then they must be ignorant bigots.

That attitude isn't doing you guys any favors.

Despite what you have been led to believe, hormonal imbalances negatively affects both men and women.

Too much estrogen is unhealthy for men. Too much testosterone is unhealthy for women.

Even though you may not think that an elective surgery to remove primary sex organs or alter secondary sexual characteristics is mutilation, it is completely reasonable for other people to think that it is.

Certain people may not think excessive piercings or tattoos are mutilation either, but it is completely reasonable for other people to disagree.

It is not an attack on your humanity for someone to disagree with you about these things.

We are at a higher risk of suicide because people like you don't want to listen, don't want to try to understand, and harp on about their personal views that do not match what a transgender person experiences or what science and medicine tell us.

Again, no offense, but this is a total fabrication.

The suicide rate in the transgender community in the U.S. is comparable to Jews in Nazi occupied Germany and African slaves in the Confederacy.

Are you honestly claiming that the condition of your life is comparable to these other victims?

I am not saying that discrimination against transgender people doesn't happen. It does and it's wrong.

What I am saying is that disagreeing with you about methods of treatment is not discrimination.

If a transgender person's willingness to commit suicide increases because I disagree with them about the efficacy of hormonal and surgical treatments - they are being irrational - and I believe it is an indicator of an unresolved mental issue.

Yup. It took many years, but once I quit fighting and accepted myself for who I am wow has life gotten so much easier now that everyday I'm not at war against myself.

I am sure that a schizophrenic would also feel more at ease if medical professionals told him that his delusions and hallucinations were real.

That may appease him and make him feel comfortable in the short-run, but it doesn't really help him and will cause greater problems in the future.

No. The evidence you've been provided with you don't like and it directly clashes with your worldview. Just be honest about it.

I honestly haven't seen the evidence yet, but I promise I will read the whole thing and hope to find it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hopefully it gets into the evidence you claimed was there. I really hope so.

It does. I've read it a few times. It even points out there is a lack of studies looking at transgender people who only receive hormone replacement therapy.

First off, my disagreeing with the information you provided (so far as I have read) does not mean I have not considered it.

You're basically saying a medically approved and accepted procedure is "poison" and "mutilation." It's not that different than the paranoid anti-vaccers and anti-psychotropic medications. All of them are telling people to go against doctor recommendations, telling people to forego needed medication, and telling them to deal with their problems in ways that have been tried in the past and found to fail.
My own anecdotal evidence, life became much better after I stopped denying who I am, but it got even better once I got of Indiana and to California, where people tend to leave me alone rather than giving me some rather unfriendly (to put it very lightly) stares, saying rude things, making me feel unwelcomed and telling me to leave. We're more accepted here in California, and that makes life so much better. But, it doesn't matter who you are, people mistreating you is highly destructive and detrimental to one's emotional health. That is a very huge and significant contributing factor that leads to the mental health woes and suicide risk of transgender people. We get to fight against our self, and once we've stopped doing that we get to fight against the world. And it's very tiring, draining, and exhausting when you have to constantly keep fighting.

 

[Prestor John]

It does. I've read it a few times. It even points out there is a lack of studies looking at transgender people who only receive hormone replacement therapy.

OK. Cool.

I definitely think all of this stuff warrants further study.

You're basically saying a medically approved and accepted procedure is "poison" and "mutilation."

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

You and other transgender people are receiving very poor and harmful treatment.

It's not that different than the paranoid anti-vaccers and anti-psychotropic medications.

How is that?

All of them are telling people to go against doctor recommendations, telling people to forego needed medication, and telling them to deal with their problems in ways that have been tried in the past and found to fail.

I don't know about any of that stuff, but I for one received some very bad recommendations from my doctor, which led me to get a second opinion - an actual diagnosis - and a new primary doctor.

There have been many mistakes made and victims had throughout the history of modern medicine.

These people are not infallible and are just as susceptible to their biases and the pressures of society and politics as anyone else.

My own anecdotal evidence, life became much better after I stopped denying who I am, but it got even better once I got of Indiana and to California, where people tend to leave me alone rather than giving me some rather unfriendly (to put it very lightly) stares, saying rude things, making me feel unwelcomed and telling me to leave.

That's funny because I was born and raised in California and I can't wait to get out.

This dump is expensive as heck and those in charge are making the dumbest money-sucking decisions.

Anyways, I never subscribe to the idea that one aspect of who or what we are makes us who or what we are.

I don't think people's sexuality or gender define them.

It sucks that you have had to deal with rude people, but if I'm being honest, that's just life.

I stand out where I live all the time and get all kinds of attention I don't always like.

We're more accepted here in California, and that makes life so much better.

It's always easy to be accepted by those that agree with you.

Even if what you believe in is a lie.

I, for example, don't feel accepted in California. These people don't care about anything except how they feel. Emotional hedonists in my opinion.

It may be hard to live with people that disagree with you, but at least they aren't lying to you in order to appease you.

But, it doesn't matter who you are, people mistreating you is highly destructive and detrimental to one's emotional health.

Only if you choose to be a victim.

That is a very huge and significant contributing factor that leads to the mental health woes and suicide risk of transgender people.

I disagree.

If this were true, then why are white males more likely to commit suicide than any other race in the U.S.?

Don't they have a monopoly on acceptance, prestige and opportunity in this country?

You still didn't address my question about Jews in Nazi occupied Germany and African slaves in the U.S.

You are claiming that transgender people in the U.S. today are receiving close to the same amount of mistreatment as those people?

I maintain my argument that the reason that transgender people are prone to other mental disorders is because they already suffer from one.

We get to fight against our self, and once we've stopped doing that we get to fight against the world.

I'm not saying that discrimination doesn't happen against transgender people, but I know they would be able to handle it a lot better if they weren't pumping themselves full of hormones that screw with their heads.

And it's very tiring, draining, and exhausting when you have to constantly keep fighting.

I don't think you need to fight. There is nothing wrong with you.

There is no universal law that says a man has to act or be a certain way in order to be a man. The same goes for women.

A fight against biology is a fight that no one is ever going to win.

The journey that these professional hacks are trying to place transgender people on is a never-ending battle against nature.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You and other transgender people are receiving very poor and harmful treatment.

You say that, but doctors don't agree with you and our own experiences do not agree with you. And they did try, in the past, to get transgender people to be comfortable in their birth-assigned sex. It didn't work, it made things worse, and those approaches were scrapped out of necessity to find treatment options that made things better.

How is that?

You're telling people that an effective treatment that is recommended by doctors is a bad thing. That mentality is why we are seeing outbreaks of the measles, causes mental health to fall into downward spiral when someone abruptly taking needed medications, and it's insisting transgender people should live a life of misery.

I don't know about any of that stuff, but I for one received some very bad recommendations from my doctor, which led me to get a second opinion - an actual diagnosis - and a new primary doctor.

Doctors too are human. But the standards of care for transgender people and the conclusion of the APA (and every other medical institute dealing with any medical issue) don't look at one case. They look at thousands to produce a statistically significant number, and determine treatment effectiveness by that.

That's funny because I was born and raised in California and I can't wait to get out.

I absolutely love it here. The cost of living is overall rather comparable to where I was, there are tons of jobs and opportunities in my field that didn't exist in Indiana, and people here treat me so much better.

I don't think people's sexuality or gender define them.

Our gender is one of our most basic and strongest senses of identity. It's so important to us that we even tend to segregate ourselves by gender without prompt or instruction

It may be hard to live with people that disagree with you, but at least they aren't lying to you in order to appease you.

I was living with people who hated me. And, of course it's easy for you to "at least they aren't lying to you." When the glares you get alone make you feel unwelcomed.

Only if you choose to be a victim.

This is another one where science and medicine do not agree. The Marry Shelley-Wollstonecraft novel "Frankenstein" takes a very good look at this social phenomena. Being mistreated by people is so detrimental that it even effects brain function and with enough of it the prefrontal cortex is thrown into overdrive, excessively and needlessly keeping someone on high-alert and leaving them stressed and fatigued from it.

I disagree.

Not one branch of social science agrees with you. Anthropology, sociology, psychology, psychiatry, and even primatologists all have many volumes of observations and studies of how bad it is for someone to be bullied and harassed. And, I do believe it's something even covered in what I provided.

Don't they have a monopoly on acceptance, prestige and opportunity in this country?

They also have unrealistic pressures and demands. Bottling up emotions is never good, but men are expected to do it. Men are expected to be tough, even though this translates to them being more likely to die from a terminal illness because men tend to delay seeking medical attention. And it doesn't help we tend to view the "standards" of a man based on what he can provide for a family - especially because it primes men to take it pretty hard if they can no longer provide for whatever reason.

You are claiming that transgender people in the U.S. today are receiving close to the same amount of mistreatment as those people?

I've never claimed nor implied that.

but I know they would be able to handle it a lot better if they weren't pumping themselves full of hormones that screw with their heads.

That doesn't make any sense. Does testosterone make men less able to handle themselves? Does estrogen do it to women? Do natal-women go through this when they are put on hormones after they hit menopause (they are the same hormones MtF transgender people get).

There is no universal law that says a man has to act or be a certain way in order to be a man. The same goes for women.

That's true. But for transgender people it's not about behaviors. There are some pretty "butch" MtFs, and some "effeminate" FtMs. Our brains do not match the biology we get at birth, and altering the body has shown to be far more effective and safe than trying to adjust the mind (the same reason homosexual conversion therapy doesn't work and has been condemned for being dangerous and destructive).

The journey that these professional hacks are trying to place transgender people on is a never-ending battle against nature.

A never ending battle against nature is if we go our entire lives trying to pretend we are someone other than who we are.

 

[columbus]

The suicide rate in the transgender community in the U.S. is comparable to Jews in Nazi occupied Germany and African slaves in the Confederacy.

Are you honestly claiming that the condition of your life is comparable to these other victims?

You don't understand what these groups have in common?


Here, let me explain it to you in a word.

Christians.

A little more nuanced explanation is,
Christians who feel entitled to violently persecute people. Their leaders encourage it, and the Bible doesn't discourage the violence.
That's what all those groups have in common. You Christians.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't understand what these groups have in common?


Here, let me explain it to you in a word.

Christians.

A little more nuanced explanation is,
Christians who feel entitled to violently persecute people. Their leaders encourage it, and the Bible doesn't discourage the violence.
That's what all those groups have in common. You Christians.
Tom

Yup. After all it wasn't Buddhist or Hindus I was watching out for in Indiana, it was Christians. Christians waving the Confederate flag, holier-than-thou Christians, good-ole boy Christians, Conservative Christians, Evangelical Christians, Christians thumping their Bibles. For a group who is commanded to "judge not" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," they are some very judgemental ********.

 

[Prestor John]

You don't understand what these groups have in common?


Here, let me explain it to you in a word.

Christians.

A little more nuanced explanation is,
Christians who feel entitled to violently persecute people. Their leaders encourage it, and the Bible doesn't discourage the violence.
That's what all those groups have in common. You Christians.
Tom

Are you saying that transgender people in the U.S. today are being persecuted at the same level as the Jews in Nazi occupied Germany and African slaves?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you saying that transgender people in the U.S. today are being persecuted at the same level as the Jews in Nazi occupied Germany and African slaves?

No. He's saying it's Christians who persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany, that it was Christians who bought Africans as slaves and used the Bible to justify it, and it is Christians who want to make life difficult for transgender people in all areas of life from legislation to restroom use.

 

[Prestor John]

No. He's saying it's Christians who persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany, that it was Christians who bought Africans as slaves and used the Bible to justify it, and it is Christians who want to make life difficult for transgender people in all areas of life from legislation to restroom use.

So, basically, he wants to avoid my question and it's potential to point out the mental instability exhibited by members of the transgender community.

I believe that ignoring possible mental issues is what is making life more difficult for transgender people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, basically, he wants to avoid my question and it's potential to point out the mental instability exhibited by members of the transgender community.

I believe that ignoring possible mental issues is what is making life more difficult for transgender people.

Believe whatever you want, facts are that facing discrimination and persecution is not good for anyone. Christians have a long history of targeting many different groups they don't like. Today they have their sites set on the LGBT community, and they do make up a bunch of utter rubbish to try to tear us down.
Believe all you want, I can throw out research all day and it doesn't agree with you. Should I introduce the concept of minority stress at this moment? It will further complicate your position and further reveal how uninformed you are.

 

[Tiberius]

Of course, nothing is going to stop anybody who is determined enough to enter any public restroom; however, some would-be sexual harassers though might be deterred from entering into a women's restroom if they are prohibited by law to be there. Right?

Can you show me a single example of a man who claimed to be a woman so he could go into the woman's toilet so he could commit an assault? Because if you're going to claim that a law against trans women using the women's bathroom will stop assaults, you must first show that this potential for abuse has actually been used.

 

[Shaul]

How is it a false charge when they themselves will tell you their views are Biblically based? The secular arguments against have largely fallen out of favor. Those based on the Bible are still alive and thriving, especially in America.

It is false as follows. The assertion was that it was caused by Biblical basis, that was the charge. Since non-Biblical discriminate against homosexuals and since only a minority of Biblical people discriminate against homosexuals, the charge that discrimination against homosexuality is Biblically based is false.