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The Torah's Bite is Worse than its Bark.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing at all wrong with the Torah's bark. It's the bite that got the balls rolling on the dark epoch of human history begun with the conception of Cain. According to Rashi we were all supposed to take a bite of the Torah's bark, not bark up the wrong tree to become rich fruitcakes rather than unleavened poor man bred.

    The new covenant is about being unleavened poor man bred. Is your sire a rich fruitcake or are you unleavened poor man bred?



    John
     
  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    What are you seeking debate on? Rashi was certainly a very important figure in Jewish history but why just mention him rather than all the others? What do you mean by 'bark' and 'bite', "tree" and "fruitcakes"?
     
  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    I mention Rashi because as a very great Jewish sage he realizes that the Torah is a living thing such that every jot and tittle in the text has almost miraculous nuances that can only be revealed to, and then by, one who dedicates his life to Hashem and God's word.

    Those who fool themselves into thinking a translation like the KJV is the plain and simple meaning of the text are something like simpletons living in a fool's paradise situated on the south side slums of Eden. King James' translators, God bless their souls, are at best slum lords and nothing like lords of the territory that exists betwixt the beit and the lamed of the Torah scroll. The KJV is like a rickety hovel built on holy ground. It might temporarily keep you warm but has no provision for shelter from the storm.



    John
     
    #3 John D. Brey, Apr 14, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  4. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    In his commentary on Genesis 1:11, Rashi says:

    Fruit trees: That the taste of the tree should be like the taste of the fruit. It [the earth] did not do so, however, but “the earth gave forth, etc., trees producing fruit,” but the trees themselves were not fruit. Therefore, when man was cursed because of his iniquity, it [the earth] too was punished for its iniquity. - [from Gen. Rabbah 5:9].

    If we took the time to read all the notes and notations associated with Rashi's comment (say in the Sapirstein Edition Rashi), we'd come to appreciate that Rashi is claiming that when ha-adam was cursed by reason of his original sin, the ground, and its produce, the trees, was cursed right along with him. Rashi is saying something profound to those with circumcised ears. He's claiming that prior to ha-dam's original sin, Cain should have been born a righteous Jewish firstborn rather than a rasha. Cain's conduct, his fruit, should have been like ha-adam's fruit, conduct, prior to the sin.

    But that ain't so. Cain's fruit don't taste like ha-adam's prelapsarian fruit. Cain's conduct as a murderer tastes different than ha-adam's righteous acts prior to his first sin.

    When Rashi says the fruit should taste like the tree, he's claiming we can eat the bark and it will taste exactly like the fruit, since prior to sin, the bark is fruit and the fruit hasn't the bite of sin, which, sin's bite, though it tastes fruity and good, ends up like wormwood in the belly of one subject to a death sentence like the one just written.



    John
     
    #4 John D. Brey, Apr 14, 2021
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  5. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    What I'm beating around the burning bush to say is that Rashi is implying that even though now there are two ways plants procreate and propagate to fill the earth, clonal, and sexual, prior to Genesis 2:21 (which is preparation for the original sin), plants only propagated in a clonal fashion.

    In the clonal fashion, every plant is a clone, an identical replica, of the one it sprouted from. Their fruit tastes exactly the same. Only with sexual mixing, using a tool to cross pollinate, does variation enter into the mix. And according to horticulturists, the natural variation almost always, with apologies to Cain, and his brood, produces a fruit, and a tree, inferior to one not subject to cross pollination.



    John
     
  6. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    do you believe?......quoting scripture is critical to your soul and it's continuance?


    I believe ....no man is defiled by what enters the mouth
    he is defiled by what comes out
     
  7. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Most of this is coming out of my typing fingers which are a type of the finger of God in the cross hairs of this examination. It's the kind of defilement that comes out of this type of finger, stereotyping though I might be, that's important to the discussion.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that your statement is the stereotypical type of statement I type all the time about. And I hope I'm not type casting you. Since that would make me the offshoot of the archetype of the less than limpid writing finger of God.



    John
     
    #7 John D. Brey, Apr 14, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I disagree here, John. The storms of life are overcome by faith in the Rock, not one's knowledge of Hebrew.

    My objection to your post is that the KJV has for centuries provided enough evidence of Jesus as Messiah to enable believers to stand faithfully upon the Rock of Christ.

    The bringing of a person to faith is ultimately a matter of the heart, not the head. The Holy Spirit, who is able to convict a person of sin, reaches the heart through the Word. This has happened to millions of believers using only the words of the KJV.

    Providing a better translation of the Hebrew text is always appreciated, but progress is not made by discarding all that has gone before; it happens 'precept upon precept'.
     
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    now consider Moses.....scratching the commandments on stone

    Thou shall not have false gods before thee
    and Moses lived in the house of Pharoah......

    Thou shall not kill.....
    and Moses fled from the house of Pharoah....for having done so

    how would it feel!!!!!
    scratching to stone......commandments you have already broken
    and the Lord God is looking over your shoulder

    dare you scratch a mark less than told?
     
  10. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Context is always important. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. The context for what I said related not to faith in Christ, but in coming to know him better through further study of scripture; particularly through knowledge of the revelation found in the Tanakh.

    Not to ramble on, but the KJV of the Tanakh (the so-called "old testament") is based not on using the Gospels and Apostolic writings as the context for interpreting the raw Hebrew in the Tanakh, but is, incredibly, and sadly, based on the Masoretic text, which, the Masoretic text, is the very interpretation of the Hebrew text that led to the crucifixion of Christ. Using that "interpretation" of the Hebrew text, rather than interpreting it using different interpretive presuppositions, is almost criminal even though it's based on necessities and the unfortunate poverty of information placed on King James' interpreters by the ravages of history.

    We're the first generation since the signature text of the Gospels who have before us the means, and the ends, to correct two-thousand years of vulgarity cross dressing as authoritative interpretation of the Tanakh.

    And when I speak of vulgarity cross dressing as authoritative interpretation, I'm not speaking of the tremendous work of the Jewish sages. I'm talking about the fact that whereas they combine their understanding of the flexibility of the Hebrew text with their own pretext, or rather presuppositions, Christian interpreters seem to know so little of the dynamics of Hebrew that they use the Jewish sages "interpretation" as though it were a singular, or authoritative, rendering of the text: the Christians don't even seem to be aware that unlike profane scripts, and texts, Hebrew has multifarious legitimate ways to be read and interpreted.

    The Jewish interpretation is only authoritative for Jews when the presuppositions of Jewish tradition are the interpretive mechanism for the exegesis. When Christians use that product, the Massorah, as the foundational understanding of the Hebrew text of the Tanakh, it's like Peter walking up with hammer in hand to a help a Roman Centurion hammer the nails into the word of God.



    John
     
    #10 John D. Brey, Apr 15, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  11. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Even as a picture is worth a thousand words, a spoken word is worth at least hundreds of written words. What was "written" in the ten commandments was nothing more than the inhale of God in preparation for exhaling one solitary Word.

    Which is another way of saying the spoken word is more than the sum of its written parts. If the commandment isn't already in your heart, mind, in your lungs, on your tongue, no matter how many times you lift what the pen-is in profane production to try to produce a living thing it will end up in the end as little more than a facade come about through a false serpentine god.



    John
     
    #11 John D. Brey, Apr 15, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
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