Opethian said:
I don't want a reasonable debate with creationists because having a reasonable debate with a creationist is impossible and useless.
You're no fun!
Seriously, what you said is also how some of the creationists view the mainstream scientific crowd too. Science, like religion, has 'all sorts'.
I hope you don't think all creationists are unreasonable. There are those who leave religion out of the argument [despite their motivations], and who actually agree on the evidence, they just disagree on the interpretation of it. Now, don't get me wrong, I know how extremely frustrating it must be for a logical thinker to struggle with someone who just doesn't 'get' evolution. But that's got nuthin' on people like myself who cringe when a fellow believer drags out some bizzare and whacky psuedoscience. [The one about God 'made it to look old' embarrasses me no end..].
There is so much that has been observed, such as natural selection, mutations etc, and it pains me that people blindly dismiss it without investigation. On the other hand, I don't think it's wrong to question the idea that this has been going on for a long time. Let's be honest about the theory of evolution - there are observations, and, there are
inferences. I'm not looking for a debate about gaps in the fossil-record, dating methods etc, but I feel I have to point out that these and other areas contain such sufficient uncertainties that a great many scientists have put forward alternate ideas to try give a better explanation, [and those ideas are not always accepted]. No one really does that for the stuff that has been observed, just for he stuff that has been inferred. Think about it. If there are questions about the long term stuff, then there is still room for debate, regardless of which side you take. I don't like the terms 'micro' and 'macro', I prefer 'observed' and 'inferred'. Is that not reasonable? I think there is room for a debate that is both healthy and scientific, and it needn't include religion, despite the fact that it might be motivating one side.
Here are my three biggest mistakes for creationists, and they should know better:
1) Disrespecting the intellect and personal feelings of evolutionists.
2) Assuming all evolutionists are deliberately/conspiratorily immoral.
3) Praying to win arguments when they should be praying for the welfare of evolutionists.
While I'm at it, here are my three biggest mistakes for scientists which get on the nerves of people like myself who try hard to keep things in the scientific realm. [don't take it personally anyone!]
1) [
Bias] Failing to admit that new observations are automatically placed, however crudely, into the existing overall evolutionary framework without stopping to check if the observation might actually go against the framework.
2) [
Arrogance] Assuming they know the exact nature of a creationist's question before it has been fully asked, and/or, assuming the creationists idea did not come from mainstream scientific literature.
3) [
Messiah complex] And lastly, my favourite: Saying that science will disappear without evolution.
[lol - the concept of 'change over time' always has and always will be a principle of science, regardless of where the specific biological version of it ends up.]
I know that not all scientists fall into these catagories, but neither do all creationists fall into the categories listed in this thread.
Peace.