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Featured The time of Judeo-Christian writings

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ted Evans, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You wrote "the [biblical] material is not primary reference by eye witnesses, evidence demonstrates that some of the material is from Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit sources," and your evidence is that "[m]any of the concepts names of Gods, and association with the Ugarit/Canaanite beliefs were covered in this thread." Seriously? This thread is simply not worth my time ...
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Looks like he's smarter than the rest of us combined. :)
     
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  3. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    So, we wonder, "why is he posting?".
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I have to go off topic! (Which really, I am not). I know nothing about the time of Judeo-Christain writings.
    Who even knows if the information isn't coming from now? I. personally, believe is coming from now.

    And.....I actually know you do not know what that means. Do I care?
     
    #104 savagewind, Aug 8, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  5. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    The Old Testament falsifies the identity of the Canaanites and all the books are a tirade against them, but how can that be, if "Hebrews, Judeans and Israelites' are themselves, Canaanites. so why are Hebrew forbidden from marrying Canaanites, There was never an ethnically distinct “Canaanite” that the Hebrews displaced either.

    Are Hebrews self-hating Canaanites, Are Hebrews Canaanites, Did Canaanite turn into Hebrews, no one can answer these logical questions.
     
  6. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    Totally off topic but so are many of the posts in this thread.

    God had it written approximately sixth century BC that He would scatter the Jewish people throughout the lands.

    Ezekiel 22:15 “I will scatter you among the nations and I will disperse you through the lands, and I will consume your uncleanness from you.

    This began approximately 70-135 AD. You may read all about it here.

    Jewish Displacement

    He also had written that He would bring them back into the lands that He had given their forefathers in the latter days.

    Zechariah 8:7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west;

    Zechariah 8:8 and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’

    Ezekiel 28:25 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob.


    “I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.” (Ezekiel 34:13, NASB95)


    On May 14, 1948, David Ben Gurion quoting from Ezekiel, declared the rebirth of the nation Israel. The first time in almost 2k years, the Jewish people were back in the homeland given to them by God and still speaking the Hebrew language. No other peoples in history have ever accomplished this feat.

    A prophecy that began completion approximately 2500 years after it was prophecised.

    OK, tell me again why the historical evidence in scripture cannot be trusted. Something that is believable.
     
  7. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    David and Solomon, are these 'Canaanite Kings', if not, then they are occupiers and Canaan was always under occupation throughout its Ancient history, Under Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greeks and Romans, they doesn't seem to be any room for a Canaanite empire.

    Was the united Kingdom of David-Solomon an occupation, God gave Abraham 'Canaan' to occupy it.

    There is NO historical Logic what-so-ever in the Old Testament.
     
  8. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I believe poster sayak83 posted a thread regarding modern day lebanese being the descendants of the canaanites, if this is true, they are ethnically distinct from jewish people.
     
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  9. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Plausible verifiable answers about faith etc?
     
  10. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    Another off topic post responding to an off topic post. Now, the rest of the story.

    "What the Bible actually says about the fate of the Canaanites
    Clearly these ‘reports’ didn’t check the source they say this DNA evidence ‘contradicted’. It will help to quote Scripture at some length, just to show how ludicrous these headlines really are. First, Numbers 33:55:

    But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those of them whom you let remain shall be as barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall trouble you in the land where you dwell.

    Canaanite DNA confirms Bible - creation.com
     
  11. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    Sorry, does not include anything clearly stated as an opinion, a belief. Only something that is presented as a fact.
     
  12. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Well, as these types of things go...it's typically the theist who has to prove. I can't prove something I don't really believe, but we can try to discuss and see where it goes.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The Hebrews were basically Canaanites, and evolved as a pastoral hill tribe in the Hills of Judah. They had the same female God based on the common female clay idols found in the towns throughout. The Hebrew written script evolved late from Phoenician/Ugarit/Canaanite written languages. The polytheistic/ Henotheistic belief system of the early Hebrews was intimately related using names of their God(s).

    From: Were the Ancient Israelites Only Canaanites? | APXAIOC

    Were the Ancient Israelites Only Canaanites?
    Submitted by Archae27 on Sun, 12/02/2012 - 12:14am

    Many archaeologists and historians of the ancient Near East now regularly promote the idea that the ancient Israelites were merely Canaanites who eventually formed a separate culture and their own ethnic identity. Rather than ancient Israel being its own ethnic group, these scholars claim that Israelites and Canaanites shared the same ancestry, then around 1200 BC or later certain Canaanites split off to form the Israelite group. This theory of shared ethnicity is based upon archaeological evidence which shows similarity in language and material culture (pottery, architecture, tools, etc.), plus a common region of settlement (cf. Kempinski, "How Profoundly Canaanized Were the Early Israelites?"). One prominent archaeologist writes that "the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan -- they emerged from within it. There was no mass Exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan. Most of the people who formed early Israel were local people -- the same people whom we see in the highlands throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages. The early Israelites were -- irony of ironies -- themselves originally Canaanites!" (Finkelstein, The Bible Unearthed). Another writes that the ancestors of the Israelites were Canaanites, along with a small mixture of some nomadic groups and Semites who had left Egypt, and that the narratives of the Exodus and Conquest are merely unhistorical myths (Dever, Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?). Thus, for many archaeologists and historians who argue that the Israelites were merely Canaanites based on archaeological data, this data supposedly supports the idea that the stories in Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, and Judges, which make a distinction between Israelites and Canaanites in the Middle Bronze, Late Bronze, and Iron Ages, are unhistorical, religious propaganda constructed to give a past to the Israelites of the Kingdom period. Ironically, rather than contradicting, the archaeological data actually agrees with the ancestry of the ancient Israelites and their settlement in the land of Canaan as recorded in the Bible.

    First, there are numerous examples in the books of Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, and Judges which record that the Israelites had Canaanite ancestors: Genesis 38:2 records that Judah took a daughter of a Canaanite for his wife. Genesis 46:10 and Exodus 6:15 make it clear that at least one of Simeon's sons was the son of a Canaanite woman. Exodus 2:21 records that Moses married a Midianite woman, who may have been related to the Canaanites, but certainly belonged to a group of nomads near Canaan. Joshua 23:12-13 warns about living among the Canaanites, intermarrying with them, and that the result will be the Canaanites staying in the land and being a snare to the Israelites. Other passages in Joshua say that the Israelites lived among the Canaanites, suggesting that this intermarriage occurred (Joshua 16:10, 17:12). Judges 3:31 and 5:6 mention a hero of Israel named Shamgar, son of Anath, who may have had Canaanite parentage. Anath was a Canaanite war goddess, attested at Ugarit and other places, and this "son of Anath" designation may have been due to a Canaanite lineage (it is also possible that he was not considered an Israelite, but merely helped the Israelites by defeating the Philistines). Judges 3:6 states that the Israelites intermarried with the Canaanites, and Judges 1:27-33 describes various places in Canaan where the Israelites lived together with the Canaanites. Thus, it is obvious that the Israelites of the Conquest, Judges, and Monarchy periods did have Canaanite ancestors.

    Second, the Israelites shared a similar, Semitic language with the Canaanites because they had lived in the land of Canaan in the Middle Bronze Age, had lived among other Semitic people during their time in Egypt during both the Hyksos period and during the enslavement of various Asiatic groups under the Egyptians, and then settled in Canaan after the Conquest. It would have been natural for them to learn and use the local language.

    Third, the early Israelites shared a common material culture (pottery, architecture, tools, etc.) with the Canaanites during the Conquest and Judges period because they had no material culture of their own at that time. The Israelite artisans who had worked in Egypt had learned Egyptian and Canaanite material culture (Canaanite material culture was prolific in the eastern Nile Delta region according to archaeological data), and even if they had developed a more specific Israelite material culture, that generation died during a period of nomadic wandering when sedentary practices such as architecture and pottery making would not have been prevalent (Numbers 32:13). Further, Joshua 24:13 makes it clear that the Israelites who came into Canaan after the wandering first settled in Canaanite cities which they did not build, resulting in adoption of Canaanite architecture and copying of other aspects of material culture, which would also have been highly influenced by living alongside Canaanites in various cities and learning or copying their crafting methods (Judges 1:27-33).

    Fourth, Dever's assertion that some of the other ancestors of the Israelites were various nomadic groups from the region and Semites who left Egypt is perfectly in line with what is recorded in the book of Exodus. The wife of Moses was a Midianite nomad, and other Israelites may have married nomads from that region or others during the Wandering, Conquest, or Judges periods. While in Egypt, it is plausible that Israelites may have married people from other Semitic groups, as Joseph went as far as marrying an Egyptian (Genesis 41:45). And, Exodus 12:38 states that a mixed multitude left Egypt, which would have included other Semites and Asiatics who were former slaves in Egypt--a fact that is known from Egyptian wall paintings and records.

    Thus, the archaeological data which suggests the early Israelites shared various aspects of material culture, language, and even some Canaanite ancestors is in complete agreement with records in from the books of Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, and Judges. The ancestors of the Israelites did previously live in Canaan at one time (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph's early years), then returned there to conquer and settle. However, the assertion by Finkelstein that the Israelites were originally Canaanites oversteps the evidence, while the conclusion that some shared ancestry, linguistics, and material culture means there was no Exodus or Israelite Conquest is a leap in logic that does not follow from that evidence. The available historical records do not state that the Israelites of the Kingdom period were Canaanites, but only that they had some Canaanite ancestors, while the archaeological data demonstrates that the two groups had shared some aspects of material culture at one time. Further, ethnicity goes beyond mere similarities in genetics, similarities in language, or the sharing of some material culture--the Israelites were clearly distinct from the Canaanites in their theological beliefs, religious practices, diet, and political structure, except in the cases where certain Israelites adopted various Canaanite religious practices (cf. the book of Judges). Therefore, the ancient Israelites were not just Canaanites as some scholars have argued, but instead an ethnic group that intermarried with people from various regions, including Canaan, and adopted some aspects of Canaanite culture in the Bronze and Iron Ages.
     
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  14. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    @Ted Evans @shunyadragon @Jayhawker Soule @Curious George

    Here I will briefly touch upon the documentary hypothesis regarding the writing of the pentateuch. The hypothesis, which many historians have broadly supported for over a century and half, considers the 5 books to be an amalgam of four to five main source documents that were later put together into its current form. The main source documents are supposed to be

    1) The J source, written from the perspective of Judea during the period of the two kingdoms. It consistently uses the word Yhwh for God from the beginning.

    2) The E source that is written from the perspective of the northern kingdom. In the extant text, the E source begins from the narrative of Abraham. This source uses the word Elohim for God till the time of Moses when (as this source believes) the name Yhwh was revealed to him.

    The J and E source are thought to have been combined together after Assyria destroyed the northern kingdom. This combined text is called rJE.

    3) The priestly P source. This source is thought to be composed by pre-exilic Jerusalem priesthood after the fall of the northern kingdom and is concerned with a priest centric perspective. P laws and instructions take up half of Numbers and Exodus and almost all of Leviticus. It also takes up some of the early Genesis events paralleling E in using Elohim for God before Moses.

    4) D source, covering most of Deuteronomy. This is part of the Deuteronomist history source that extend a into Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings. Thought to be initially composed at the court of king Josiah, it was later extended during the exilic period.


    In a later post, I will look at the evidence for this theory as presented by Richard Elliot Friedmann in his book, "Bible with sources revealed". One can then discuss the strength and weaknesses of the theory.

    The Bible with Sources Revealed: Richard Elliott Friedman: 9780060730659: Amazon.com: Books
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Just between you and me, I don't think our @shunyadragon took the time to read and understand his cut and paste. How typical. :D
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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  17. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    If you have some constructive idea to present, please be my guest.
     
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  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The results of genetic studies are interesting, each tribe is somewhat unique genetically, but yes related as the peoples of the Levant (the region of including Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and the surrounding region are related peoples, but in some ways remained unique. The Canaanites became what are today Lebanese. Hebrews remained genetically Semitic peoples, but with dominant distinct genetics of their Hebrew relationships with the Hebrews of the Hills of Judah, with a mix of European ancestry.

    The Hebrews of the period history before 600 BCE were semitic, but also through history remained distinctly Hebrew.



    Therefore the pre 600 BCE relationship with the Babylonian/Phoenician/Canaanite/Ugarit was primarily a cultural relationships with th dominant cultures.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The reference was up to date, yours lack any coherent references that support your view.
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The source is accurate in describing the Hebrews as culturally intimately related to the dominate cultures of Phoenicians, Canaanites and Ugarites, but still remained Hebrews, of the the Hills of Judah. Before 1000 BCE they were culturally Canaanites as a pastoral Hill tribe off the Hills of Judah.

    Your selective citation of sources to justify your agenda continues, with no contribution of sources to support your 'belief.'
     
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