• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The time of Judeo-Christian writings

Deidre

Well-Known Member
If you were to buy a used car from someone, would you take their word that the car never had an accident? Or would you want proof? If they write it out (their promise) on paper, would that be proof? No, that would be hearsay not evidence. If you interview for a job, but don't have a resume, should the employer just trust your word? No, the resume is proof but they still check with past employers. That's proof, not your word. Likewise, you telling me that the Bible is literal truth based on facts doesn't make it so. You can believe it if you wish, but that's called faith not facts. And you can't prove it at all. That, is a fact.

I did not become a Christian until my late forties and since I come from a technology background, I required more than faith in the beginning. But there is a very profound statement relative to scripture, “the more you learn, the more faith you have and the more faith that you have, the more you learn”. I started with the “learning” part first, faith came afterwards.

What convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt was predictive prophecy, much of which can be proven with archelogy and secular history. There are hundreds of prophecies in scripture that have been fulfilled exactly as was prophesied, sometimes centuries in advance. Furthermore, the scriptures were penned by 40 or so authors over many centuries and hundreds of miles apart that maintain continuity from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 before, telephone, telegraph, television and telewoman.



Not true, the Bible speaks of what was, history, what is, the present, and what will be, the future. To think of it as nothing more than a historical document is extremely myopic.

BTW and IMO, there is a huge difference in "Christian" and a Bible believing Christian.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
... or, did I ask about OT and NT writings?

Yes, you did. Point 1 of your OP.

It is my understanding that "Judeo-Christian" covers both, the OT and the NT is that incorrect?

Yes, that is incorrect. The Old and New Testaments are christian works, neither have anything to do with Judaism. Calling these books 'Judeo-Christian' is flat out wrong.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
It's strange how theists and atheists can't seem to agree on the definition of "evidence." Evidence isn't what you want it to be so it fits your religious story, it either is objective or not. The Bible is not objectively factual. If it were, we would all take it as factual, just like we take other historical texts.

History basically has no evidence. Evidence is just an ideal today's people delivered from education. Humans seldom rely on evidence to reach a truth. In contrary, humans rely mostly and almost exclusively on putting faith in what the direct/eye-witnesses say about what truth is.

That's why among 100% humans who know for a fact that the existence of black holes being a truth, 99% of them don't have the evidence. Another confusion introduced in today's education is that all kinds of truths are treated as a science for its evidence to be presented. But in this very reality, not every truth is a science. You don't even have the evidence what you yourself just did yesterday, or how about today but 2 years ago?

Evidence is based on something reachable to today's humans such that we can do observation and examination. Spiritual realm is more like a hypothesis based on rare human experience that our technology can hardly bring us there to do observation even under the circumstance that it does exist! Shall there be any truth there, the only way for humans to reach it is by putting faith in accounts of human witnessing. There is no any other way round!
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
@Jayhawker Soule,

Do you happen to recall the thread titles of any informative conversations that you had on this topic? I know you have discussed this time period with other posters in the past, I was wondering if you remember any threads that stuck out in your mind as informative. And also if you recall other posters beyomd those I named who had informative thoughts/materials on the subject?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
If you were to buy a used car from someone, would you take their word that the car never had an accident? Or would you want proof? If they write it out (their promise) on paper, would that be proof? No, that would be hearsay not evidence. If you interview for a job, but don't have a resume, should the employer just trust your word? No, the resume is proof but they still check with past employers. That's proof, not your word. Likewise, you telling me that the Bible is literal truth based on facts doesn't make it so. You can believe it if you wish, but that's called faith not facts. And you can't prove it at all. That, is a fact.

If a witness happened to write down what you just did yesterday. We have to choose between believe or disbelieve and there's not any other options left there.

What you just had for your lunch yesterday, or today but 2 years ago? Show us some evidence!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I disagree, if there is archaeological evidence that proves some one other than Moses was the author, would that not disprove Moses as the author? OTOH, there are a number of verses in scripture that seems to claim Moses is the author so what verifiable evidence does academia have that proves someone other than Moses as being the author? What about the Bible scholars that agree with scripture, why are they wrong and those that disagree are correct?

The evidence has determined that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after ~800 BCE from various sources. Some are Babylonian, Canaanite/Ugarit cuneiform tablets. There is no known Hebrew nor primitive forms of Hebrew texts prior to ~600 BCE, and the Hebrew written language in the possible primitive form has not been found prior to ~1000 BCE.

We have no known writings nor outside sources that Moses wrote anything.

Can you present any writings of the Pentateuch prior to ~600 BCE that would demonstrate your claim.

Yes you are proposing to prove the negative, when you have presented absolutely nothing outside the text of the Bible that would support Moses as the author. The only thing you have offered is the authority of the text proves the authority of text and the authorship.

John Ankerberg does the same thing, he cites the text of the Bible to support the authorship of the Pentateuh, and does not offer any corroborating evidence outside the Bible to support Moses as the author of the Pentateuch.

Still waiting . . .
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
@Jayhawker Soule,

Do you happen to recall the thread titles of any informative conversations that you had on this topic? I know you have discussed this time period with other posters in the past, I was wondering if you remember any threads that stuck out in your mind as informative. And also if you recall other posters beyond those I named who had informative thoughts/materials on the subject?
I'm sorry. There were too many with too many newbies anxious to impress.

As for members: there is one whose name I can't seem to recall - Angellous something (?) - who is degreed and exceptionally bright. He's also pretty good at the guitar.

Sorry I don't have more to give you.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm not interested in repeating myself. Pay better attention next time -- or not. I'm fine with it either way.

Not repeating yourself?!?!?! So far in this thread you have offered nothing constructive nor worth repeating!

Again . . . Specifically what terms have I redefined?

 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Not repeating yourself?!?!?!
That actually works better if you balance the punctuation marks and separate them from the word, i.e., yourself ?!?!?!? - but that's purely a matter of aesthetics.

So far in this thread you have offered nothing constructive nor worth repeating!
Come now, that seems a bit unfair. Certainly drawing attention to your plagiarism must be deemed as worth something.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Therefore?

Moses was not the author, the material is not primary reference by eye witnesses, evidence demonstrates that some of the material is from Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit sources, nor is there any evidence that the Exodus account is actually an account of a massive movement of Jews from Egypt to Palestine.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Come now, that seems a bit unfair. Certainly drawing attention to your plagiarism must be deemed as worth something.

No not worth squat. I apologized for the omission. I am looking for substantive responses that are meaningful, and you have offered none.

Specifically what terms have I redefined?
 
Top