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The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

  • Allegorical

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Historical

    Votes: 13 30.2%
  • Partly historical

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • We can’t possibly know for certain

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • This poll doesn’t reflect my thinking

    Votes: 15 34.9%

  • Total voters
    43

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
As a Bible believing Christian I believe the account of the plagues is historical, and that the exodus recorded in the book of (Exodus) is historical, literal, and true.

As to comparison with Corona virus, there was with the plagues in Egypt a miraculous element involved. God raised up Moses and led him to speak to Pharaoh and directed the timing and ceasing of the plagues. There was a direct purpose involved, as you say, the liberation of Israel.

The proof I present is the testimony of the Bible.

Good-Ole-Rebel
The Israelites arose out of the midst of the Canaanites -- as archaeology and even their languages demonstrates. This, of course, provided little or nothing for this new ideological group to base themselves on, so they created a "history" essentially out of thin air. The plagues, and all the other "miraculous" bits of the Exodus, have only one purpose -- to provide narrative attesting to the power of YHWH, and Moses.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But I do believe the most driving question is why would God supposedly have caused this by "hardening Pharaoh's heart", and this simply doesn't make one iota of sense to me? For me, I have no problem with rejecting that as I've never been a believer in scriptural inerrancy.
The account appears to indicate Pharaoh’s heart was already hard and cruel. God simply expedited Pharaoh’s character and heart condition.
Maybe these linked articles will give you some food for thought on this topic, if you’re interested...

“According to Adam Clarke's commentary, the Hebrew word translated harden "literally signifies to strengthen, confirm, make bold or courageous." An illustration commonly heard is that of a sponge squeezed (made hard) in the hand. Anything that comes forth from the squeezed sponge was already there. When God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, He simply forced out what was already there, strengthening Pharaoh's own convictions.”

Question: Did God take away Pharaoh's free will when He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" (Exodus 10:1-2)? What verses point to free will in the Bible?

In Defense of the Faith
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Screen Shot 2020-03-28 at 10.41.49 PM.png
I voted this poll doesn’t reflect my thinking - the plagues were myth.

They were historical and also meant to illustrate the Gods of Egypt being judged

Exodus Overview
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The Israelites arose out of the midst of the Canaanites -- as archaeology and even their languages demonstrates. This, of course, provided little or nothing for this new ideological group to base themselves on, so they created a "history" essentially out of thin air. The plagues, and all the other "miraculous" bits of the Exodus, have only one purpose -- to provide narrative attesting to the power of YHWH, and Moses.


I see it very differently. God made the worlds by his word 'out of nothing' as it were and now God makes people similarly, figuratively

He also judges the godz of Egypt

Screen Shot 2020-03-28 at 10.41.34 PM.png


Exodus Overview
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The account appears to indicate Pharaoh’s heart was already hard and cruel. God simply expedited Pharaoh’s character and heart condition.
Maybe these linked articles will give you some food for thought on this topic, if you’re interested...

“According to Adam Clarke's commentary, the Hebrew word translated harden "literally signifies to strengthen, confirm, make bold or courageous." An illustration commonly heard is that of a sponge squeezed (made hard) in the hand. Anything that comes forth from the squeezed sponge was already there. When God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart, He simply forced out what was already there, strengthening Pharaoh's own convictions.”

Question: Did God take away Pharaoh's free will when He "hardened Pharaoh's heart" (Exodus 10:1-2)? What verses point to free will in the Bible?

In Defense of the Faith


Pharaoh hardened his heart
God hardened Pharaohs heart
Pharaoh hardened his heart
God hardened Pharaohs heart
Pharaoh hardened his heart
God hardened Pharaohs heart
Pharaoh hardened his heart
God hardened Pharaohs heart

it went back and forth
but ultimately God hardened Pharoah's heart in Psalms 106, 107

Screen Shot 2020-03-28 at 10.50.30 PM.png



Exodus Overview
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
\ Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel
The weird thing about the ten plagues is that in the story, they're not Pharaoh's fault:

Exodus 7
1 And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
2 You shall speak all that I command you; and Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land.
3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
4 Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.​

So Pharaoh seems to have been reasonable enough in his own right, since he won't refuse unless God hardens his heart.

The Bronze Age played pretty savage games.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Since Baha'is believe they have the latest message from God, I think it is important to know what Baha'is believe. I personally doubt they story is literally and historically true and accurate. But I know that is important for some Jews and some Christians to believe it is. And I assume Baha'is will say it is allegorical. If so, what is the symbolic meaning of the story? And, another issue for Baha'is, literal believing Christians believe that the religion of Egypt was false... that they believed in false gods. What do Baha'is believe about the religion of the ancient Egyptians? Thanks.

There’s a fair amount of latitude as to how Baha’is might view both the Jewish Scriptures and New Testament. A useful paper by written by C Dublin 1996 states:

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

A Bahá'í View of the Bible


In regards the historicity to the Ten Plagues story in Exodus, there is no evidence to support the Israelites were enslaved by Egyptians, the ten plagues or the flight from Egypt. From a Baha’i perspective there is be a tendency to see a deeper spiritual meaning of the story rather than accept as literal, historical truth.

You may be interested in a paper written by a Baha’i exploring the ten plagues from a more scholarly outlook.

http://irfancolloquia.org/pdf/lights16_borovicka_plagues_exodus.pdf

I know little about the religious practices of the Egyptians. It would is clear from the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible Yahweh commanded the Israelites to have none other God but Him and to desist from idolatry and to worship other gods.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
The Israelites arose out of the midst of the Canaanites -- as archaeology and even their languages demonstrates. This, of course, provided little or nothing for this new ideological group to base themselves on, so they created a "history" essentially out of thin air. The plagues, and all the other "miraculous" bits of the Exodus, have only one purpose -- to provide narrative attesting to the power of YHWH, and Moses.

But that is not what the Bible says.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Parenthetically, with all this talk about hardening pharaoh's heart, it helps to see the heart through the eyes of the Ancient Near East rather than the eyes of some 20th-21st century song writer. See, for example, HEART.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a frequently discussed issue among Jews during passover.

Here's an interesting article summarizing the approaches of Jewish commentators on it:

Who Really Hardened Pharaoh's Heart? | My Jewish Learning

TLDR: It's apologetic.
Thanks for that ─ yes, standard apologetics, so the reader winces and yawns.

The text says what it says, another of those insights into Bronze Age thought which the Torah provides.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thanks for that ─ yes, standard apologetics, so the reader winces and yawns.

The text says what it says, another of those insights into Bronze Age thought which the Torah provides.
Most American Jews in my demographic agree with this; they wince and they yawn too. I appreciate the apologetics, though. I think it's a symptom of being religious. I'm apologetic towards my own religious text.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most American Jews in my demographic agree with this; they wince and they yawn too. I appreciate the apologetics, though. I think it's a symptom of being religious. I'm apologetic towards my own religious text.
Hmm. My own view is that the job of the apologist is the job of the defense attorney, putting the Cause first and regarding ordinary notions of truth as something one can resort to if it suits the case. (If that sounds offensive to you then it comes with my apologies.)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs
Neither, IMO.

I think the Bible presents them as historical fact; it's just that the Bible is wrong.

Would they even work as an allegory? If they were an allegory, what message do you think they're trying to express?

Edit: I don't think that the mere fact that a modern reader would consider a literal interpretation of an ancient text to be ridiculous and obviously false is a reason to assume it was intended by its ancient authors to be taken non-literally.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I have. I agree with him.
No, you apparently have a predisposition to share an uninformed and, thereby, superficial opinion, but this is par for the course when it come to historicity debates.

Don't worry. It's not a permanent disability. Just read a couple of books and call me in the morning. :D
 
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