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The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

  • Allegorical

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Historical

    Votes: 13 30.2%
  • Partly historical

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • We can’t possibly know for certain

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • This poll doesn’t reflect my thinking

    Votes: 15 34.9%

  • Total voters
    43

Muffled

Jesus in me
This is how I do it: If I see any signs that it was intended as an allegory, I interpret it as an allegory. If not, I interpret it as being intended as literal. On this case, I interpret it as being intended as literal. How should I vote?

I am afraid that by voting in 'historical' that would be understood as actually believing those events transpired. I do not. I consider it to be a fabrication.

I believe you should reveal what your basis is for believing it is a fabrication. Are there other writers saying so back then? Have you talked to any eyewitnesses?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I believe you should reveal what your basis is for believing it is a fabrication. Are there other writers saying so back then? Have you talked to any eyewitnesses?

The lack of evidence. The ten plagues would have been remarkable enough for other people to have written about them.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
According to the compilers of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, they date the exodus at somewhere around the year of 1500 BC about the period when the island of Santorini or Thira blew its top, when seismic waves flooded Egyptian croplands, causing a famine and other catastrophic events.

The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was exploded out into the stratosphere, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity of the future, was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

But at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption. This matches the composition of the Thera eruption.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@adrian009 I want to revisit this question with you... "So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical?"
Earlier, I said, I too [along with a number of persons in the Bible (I named at least six)], believe the scriptures to be true - the inspired word of God. Hence, I believe that for me to claim to believe the scriptures, and at the same time, claim the plagues to be allegorical, creates a contradiction of claims, which would reveal either a gross ignorance, or serious hypocrisy, since I would be demonstrating disbelief in what is written.

I really was interested in getting your response, but did not hear from you.
I want to ask what your thoughts are on what I said, and also ask if you think Psalms 78 is a scripture that does not belong in the holy writings, because I think it definitively refutes the beliefs of those who hold to the view that the plagues of Egypt, as well as other events surrounding the Exodus, are allegorical.

The entire Psalm is worth reading, but here are some excerpts...
Psalm 78
(Psalm 78:1-8) 1 Listen, my people, to my law; Incline your ear to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a proverb. I will propound riddles of long ago. 3The things we have heard and know, Which our fathers have related to us, 4We will not hide from their sons; We will relate to the generation to come The praiseworthy deeds of Jehovah and his strength, The wonderful things he has done. 5 He established a reminder in Jacob And set a law in Israel; He commanded our forefathers To make these things known to their children, 6So that the next generation, The children yet to be born, might know them. They in turn would relate them to their children. 7 Then these would put their confidence in God. They would not forget God’s works But would observe his commandments. 8 Then they would not be like their forefathers, A stubborn and rebellious generation, A generation whose heart was unsteady And whose spirit was not faithful to God.
(Psalm 78:45-53) 45He sent swarms of gadflies to devour them And frogs to bring them to ruin. 46He gave their crops to the voracious locusts, The fruit of their labor to the swarming locusts. 47He destroyed their vines with hail And their sycamore trees with hailstones. 48He gave their beasts of burden over to the hail And their livestock to the lightning bolts. 49He inflicted his burning anger on them, Fury and indignation and distress, Companies of angels bringing calamity. 50 He cleared a pathway for his anger. He did not spare them from death; And he gave them over to pestilence. 51Finally he struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, The beginning of their procreative power in the tents of Ham. 52Then he brought his people out like a flock And guided them like a drove in the wilderness. 53 He led them in security, And they felt no fear; The sea covered their enemies.
(Psalm 78:70-72) 70He chose David his servant And took him from the sheep pens, 71 From tending the nursing ewes; He made him the shepherd over Jacob, his people, And over Israel, his inheritance. 72 He shepherded them with integrity of heart, And with skillful hands he led them.

The writer of this Psalm is relating these accounts as history, not allegory.
What is your response?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?

Firstly, they weren't actually plagues as they weren't all diseases, some were frogs hopping about.

I think that they were intended to be historical but are not.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@adrian009 I want to revisit this question with you... "So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical?"
Earlier, I said, I too [along with a number of persons in the Bible (I named at least six)], believe the scriptures to be true - the inspired word of God. Hence, I believe that for me to claim to believe the scriptures, and at the same time, claim the plagues to be allegorical, creates a contradiction of claims, which would reveal either a gross ignorance, or serious hypocrisy, since I would be demonstrating disbelief in what is written.

I really was interested in getting your response, but did not hear from you.

I want to ask what your thoughts are on what I said, and also ask if you think Psalms 78 is a scripture that does not belong in the holy writings, because I think it definitively refutes the beliefs of those who hold to the view that the plagues of Egypt, as well as other events surrounding the Exodus, are allegorical.

The entire Psalm is worth reading, but here are some excerpts...
Psalm 78

The writer of this Psalm is relating these accounts as history, not allegory.
What is your response?

Story telling is part of every culture. Some stories may:
1/ Have no historical basis at all
2/ Embellish actual history
3/ Attempt to provide an account of history.

When one generation refers to the stories of the previous generation as completely historical rather than the embellished history or complete myth when first, then misunderstandings begins.

Jesus refers to the story of Noah in His final sermon:

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:37-39


Does that mean we should take the account of Noah in Genesis as being literally true?

I know your answer, and mine is 'No'. There isn't a shred of evidence to support a worldwide flood and the story of all the animals of the earth coming together on the ark is far too implausible to be taken seriously. Same deal with the ten plagues of Egypt. You label my view as 'gross ignorance' and 'serious hypocrisy' if you like. I call it respect for evidence and science.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Firstly, they weren't actually plagues as they weren't all diseases, some were frogs hopping about.

I think that they were intended to be historical but are not.

Maybe, but who wrote Exodus and when? No one knows for certain. How can we be certain of the intent if we can't even be certain of facts surrounding the authorship and when it was written?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Maybe, but wrote Exodus and when? No one knows for certain. How can we be certain of the intent if can't even be certain of facts surrounding the authorship and when it was written?

Exactly we cannot. We can suspect whatever because of how it is written but we cannot conclusively determine either way.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Story telling is part of every culture. Some stories may:
1/ Have no historical basis at all
2/ Embellish actual history
3/ Attempt to provide an account of history.

When one generation refers to the stories of the previous generation as completely historical rather than the embellished history or complete myth when first, then misunderstandings begins.

Jesus refers to the story of Noah in His final sermon:

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:37-39


Does that mean we should take the account of Noah in Genesis as being literally true?

I know your answer, and mine is 'No'. There isn't a shred of evidence to support a worldwide flood and the story of all the animals of the earth coming together on the ark is far too implausible to be taken seriously. Same deal with the ten plagues of Egypt. You label my view as 'gross ignorance' and 'serious hypocrisy' if you like. I call it respect for evidence and science.
Thank you.
So to you, the Jews engaged in storytelling which 1) have no historical basis at all; 2/ embellish actual history; 3/ Attempt to provide an account of history. So that later generation of Jews took them as actual true history, and live according to a made up history,, but people in our time take these false stories and claim that they were told with a hidden meaning that can be understood.

You last statement does not seem to fit your argument at all.
Where is the evidence and science for the God you serve?
There is none, but you take your God as literally true.
Seems to me a contradiction of claims here also.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you.
So to you, the Jews engaged in storytelling which 1) have no historical basis at all; 2/ embellish actual history; 3/ Attempt to provide an account of history. So that later generation of Jews took them as actual true history, and live according to a made up history,, but people in our time take these false stories and claim that they were told with a hidden meaning that can be understood.

You last statement does not seem to fit your argument at all.
Where is the evidence and science for the God you serve?
There is none, but you take your God as literally true.
Seems to me a contradiction of claims here also.

The extent to which Jews took their sacred scriptures literally in the past and now warrants investigation. Orthodox Jews would be more inclined to literalism as opposed to Reformist Jews. I’m sure there were trends towards being more literal in the past. Same deal with Christianity. Of course you are part of a relatively small Christian sect or denomination that takes a more literalist approach.

Having an historical basis to faith and belief in God is very important though. Most scholars agree Jesus was an historical figure who was an itinerant preacher who was crucified. So I believe I’m standing on solid ground in regards Faith in Christ. Not that my faith is determined by what historians determine to have factual basis and what doesn’t. My Faith is founded on historical characters and what they taught.

Baha’is have a much stronger historical basis for their faith than Christians as we believe that Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh were Manifestations of God. So we can be much more certain about historical facts concerning lives of more recent Divine Messengers as well as what They taught. That’s not to say we should believe every recorded event attributable to Their lives should be accepted as literal history.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Story telling is part of every culture. Some stories may:
1/ Have no historical basis at all
2/ Embellish actual history
3/ Attempt to provide an account of history.

The extent to wish Jews took their sacred scriptures literally in the past and now warrants investigation. Orthodox Jews would be more inclined to literalism as opposed to Reformist Jews. I’m sure there were trends towards being more literal in the past. Same deal with Christianity. Of course you are part of a relatively small Christian sect or denomination that takes a more literalist approach.

Having an historical basis to faith and belief in God is very important though. Most scholars agree Jesus was an historical figure who was an itinerant preacher who was crucified. So I believe I’m standing on solid ground in regards Faith in Christ. Not that my faith is determined by what historians determine to have factual basis and what doesn’t. My Faith is founded on historical characters and what they taught.
As you know, I think the stories were meant to be taken literally by those people in ancient times. Today, those stories don't seem as though they could possibly be literal. This puts a lot of pressure on the believers in those religions... How far are they going to go with taking things as literal?

The only problem I have with the Baha'is is when they say that the stories were true, but symbolically true. What does that even mean? To me, that means the story was fiction. Is this accurate, though? Is that what Baha'u'llah has said that the stories are "symbolically" true? If so, what did he say about the plagues?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
As you know, I think the stories were meant to be taken literally by those people in ancient times. Today, those stories don't seem as though they could possibly be literal. This puts a lot of pressure on the believers in those religions... How far are they going to go with taking things as literal?

The only problem I have with the Baha'is is when they say that the stories were true, but symbolically true. What does that even mean? To me, that means the story was fiction. Is this accurate, though? Is that what Baha'u'llah has said that the stories are "symbolically" true? If so, what did he say about the plagues?

There is a youtube video on the ten plaques of Egypt from a Bahaí perspective that may interest you.


If you want the short story, go through the slides. It will only take a few minutes.

http://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The extent to which Jews took their sacred scriptures literally iin the past and now warrants investigation.
Why do you think the Jews extended the scriptures beyond what was literally true - a guess, disbelief in what was recorded, or just personal feeling... or other?

Orthodox Jews would be more inclined to literalism as opposed to Reformist Jews. I’m sure there were trends towards being more literal in the past.
You are sure, based on what facts exactly?

Same deal with Christianity. Of course you are part of a relatively small Christian sect or denomination that takes a more literalist approach.
I go by what is recorded as being literal, (by Jewish writers), which is a part of Jewish custom, based on their history. Investigation led me to conclusive evidence that it's literal history. No guesses, or personal views.

Having an historical basis to faith and belief in God is very important though. Most scholars agree Jesus was an historical figure who was an itinerant preacher who was crucified. So I believe I’m standing on solid ground in regards Faith in Christ. Not that my faith is determined by what historians determine to have factual basis and what doesn’t. My Faith is founded on historical characters and what they taught.

Baha’is have a much stronger historical basis for their faith than Christians as we believe that Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh were Manifestations of God. So we can be much more certain about historical facts concerning lives of more recent Divine Messengers as well as what They taught. That’s not to say we should believe every recorded event attributable to Their lives should be accepted as literal history.
Are you saying this is evidence and science for your God?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Why do you think the Jews extended the scriptures beyond what was literally true - a guess, disbelief in what was recorded, or just personal feeling... or other?

You’re making an assumption the Jews believed in their scriptures as literal truth. Do you have any evidence besides what is written in the Hebrew Bible? Other than what’s written in the Bible we can’t even be certain the Israelites were in Egypt during the time of Moses.

You are sure, based on what facts exactly?

While we don’t know for certain what the Jews believed during the time of Moses right up until the Babylonian captivity, we do know about the diversity of Jewish beliefs today. However beliefs and not facts, just beliefs.

I go by what is recorded as being literal, (by Jewish writers), which is a part of Jewish custom, based on their history. Investigation led me to conclusive evidence that it's literal history. No guesses, or personal views.
.
Of course its your personal view if you investigated it? What is the actual evidence for the ten plagues of Egypt? The Egyptians kept records of significant events but no records of the ten plagues. If you want to believe they happened based on what’s written in Exodus that’s your decision. However it doesn’t constitute evidence anymore than supernatural events written in the Vedas are evidence. They are simply stories passed down from generation to generation as all cultures do.

Are you saying this is evidence and science for your God?

Yes.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The lack of evidence. The ten plagues would have been remarkable enough for other people to have written about them.

I believe one might expect that but history is often written by the winners and the losers tend to bury it.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I believe one might expect that but history is often written by the winners and the losers tend to bury it.

But to the point where there is no other account for them? The plagues would have been far too remarkable for that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I go by what is recorded as being literal, (by Jewish writers), which is a part of Jewish custom, based on their history. Investigation led me to conclusive evidence that it's literal history. No guesses, or personal views.
Absolutely false. Even within the more orthodox circles, it is an axiom that one needs to try and ascertain "the meaning behind the words".

Also, all branches of Judaism rely at least somewhat on what are called "commentaries", namely various interpretations of narratives, especially by sages, such as Hillel, Akiva, the RAMBAM (Maimonides), etc. If one does Torah study, as I did for a couple of decades, you dig through these commentaries to try and get things put into various perspectives to help with our own personal discernment. Thus, the axiom that "two Jews have three opinions on everything".

BTW, according to my former rabbi, the verse with the most commentaries deals with the verse that says "and God hardened Pharaoh's heart...".
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There is a youtube video on the ten plaques of Egypt from a Bahaí perspective that may interest you.
So there is no evidence, yet Baha'is believe Moses was a manifestation? So similar to the story of Jesus, things that are told as if actual historical events are not. But the person in the story is real? I still have a difficult time thinking that the whole purpose and the real purpose of the story was that it had a spiritual/symbolic meaning. I think the "literal" meaning is much more powerful. Thousands of years ago who would know? Traditions were past down orally, then finally written down. Children would be taught, "This is our history of how we got here. It is the story of our God and what he's done for us." I don't think they'd get the same effect if they said, "This is a fictional story about our people and our God. In this fictional story our God parted the seas and sent plagues to the people that enslaved us. None of it is true, but you get the idea right? There is a great spiritual message to be learned."

I go by what is recorded as being literal,
What would you do if a religion gave you a book that wasn't literally true? And then told you to follow all the teachings of peace and love in that book but not to get caught up in the stories, since they aren't true? I think it makes Christianity meaningless. What could Christians say when they held up the Bible, "Listen people in this book are great fictional stories about God and his prophets and of his Christ." That is no where near what Bible-believing Christians do say, "This Book is the very Word of God. Believing in it and listen to what it says. Within its pages you will find salvation for your soul."
Absolutely false. Even within the more orthodox circles, it is an axiom that one needs to try and ascertain "the meaning behind the words".

Also, all branches of Judaism rely at least somewhat on what are called "commentaries", namely various interpretations of narratives, especially by sages, such as Hillel, Akiva, the RAMBAM (Maimonides), etc. If one does Torah study, as I did for a couple of decades, you dig through these commentaries to try and get things put into various perspectives to help with our own personal discernment. Thus, the axiom that "two Jews have three opinions on everything".

BTW, according to my former rabbi, the verse with the most commentaries deals with the verse that says "and God hardened Pharaoh's heart...".
So how do Jews take the "historical" stories? Something like the plagues and the parting of the sea, do they look at them and say, "Well, obviously this didn't happen, so what is the spiritual message behind the story?" And I really don't see why hundreds of years ago why people would not take it literal. Why would they doubt that their God did miraculous things for them? Now, of course, is different. So what does it mean to "believe" in the Bible when the person believes the stories are not historical but fictional?

I think the next step is worse. Take the stories away and what was real about Moses... or was Moses even real? Same problem for Christians, doubt the stories and then what about Jesus? And that is what Christians are faced with... The Baha'i Faith is telling them that the promised one has returned and it is not Jesus. That Jesus is dead and his resurrection was just a story. But, Baha'u'llah has returned in the "Spirit" of Christ. If those Bible stories aren't literally true, then why hold on to Judaism and Christianity? And, could the Baha'is interpretation and explanation be true?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So there is no evidence, yet Baha'is believe Moses was a manifestation? So similar to the story of Jesus, things that are told as if actual historical events are not. But the person in the story is real? I still have a difficult time thinking that the whole purpose and the real purpose of the story was that it had a spiritual/symbolic meaning. I think the "literal" meaning is much more powerful. Thousands of years ago who would know? Traditions were past down orally, then finally written down. Children would be taught, "This is our history of how we got here. It is the story of our God and what he's done for us." I don't think they'd get the same effect if they said, "This is a fictional story about our people and our God. In this fictional story our God parted the seas and sent plagues to the people that enslaved us. None of it is true, but you get the idea right? There is a great spiritual message to be learned."

According to the Jewish Virtual Library:

MYTH, MYTHOLOGY (Gr. μῦθος; "word," "word content," "narrative"). A myth is a story about the universe that is considered sacred. Such a story deals with the great moments of man's life: birth, initiation, and death, referring them to events that took place in "mythical time." The myth is often recited during a dramatic representation of the event it narrates (e.g., the Enūma eliš was recited at the Babylonian New Year festival). Through the ritual, man becomes contemporary with the mythical event and participates in the gods' creative actions. Thus man can create, maintain, or renew fecundity, life, etc. Myths can be classified according to their subjects, as: theogonic, cosmogonic, anthropogonic, soteriological, and eschatological, myths of paradise, myths of flood, hero myths, etc.

In the Bible
The word "myth" was first applied to biblical narratives in the 18th century, when the question of the historicity of the first chapters of Genesis arose. For J.G. Eichhorn, for instance, the biblical narratives contain philosophical truth (e.g., the Garden of Eden narrative) or are based on a kernel of historical truth (the narratives concerning the Patriarchs). In the mid-19th century the term myth acquired a more precise meaning in biblical research.

Myth, Mythology

The idea of mythology, symbolism and allegory in the Bible, including Hebrew scripture is part of any informed analysis. Its central to Jewish and Christian Biblical scholarship. Its not something that is unique to the Baha'is. It is the Christian fundamentalists that are out of step with modernity.
 
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