The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

[nPeace]

Nothing to be sorry about. And if I were you, I wouldn't go about telling God how best to do things.

Unless you have good reason for this statement, I suggest it's just unwarranted. Did I tell God how best to do things... where exactly?

 

[firedragon]

You managed to date the Exodus? That's quite the trick.

Interesting. Do you you have a dating for the exodus? I mean the writing, not the events.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting. Do you you have a dating for the exodus? I mean the writing, not the events.

Do you think I said that I did?

 

[Shad]

Do you mean like accepting the Nabonidus Chronicle and the Mesha Stele ?

You should look up hieroglyphs and read your own links. None support the Exodus narrative.

 

[Shad]

This is taken from bbc.co.uk:

Were the Hebrews in Egypt?
The story goes that Moses led two million Hebrews out of Egypt and they lived for 40 years in the Sinai desert - but a century of archaeology in the Sinai has turned up no evidence of it. If the Hebrews were never in Egypt then perhaps the whole issue was fiction, made up to give their people an exotic history and destiny.

Some archeologists decided to search instead in the Nile Delta: the part of Egypt where the Bible says the Hebrews settled.

They combed the area for evidence of a remarkably precise claim - that the Hebrews were press-ganged into making mud-bricks to build two great cities - Pithom and Ramses. Ramses II was the greatest Pharaoh in all of ancient Egypt - his statues are everywhere. Surely his city could be traced? But no sign could be found. There were suggestions it all been made up by a scribe.

Until a local farmer found a clue: the remains of the feet of a giant statue. An inscription on a nearby pedestal confirmed that the statue belonged to Ramses II. Eventually, archeologists unearthed traces of houses, temples, even palaces. Using new technology, the archaeologists were able to detect the foundations and they mapped out the whole city in a few months. The city they had discovered was one of the biggest cities in ancient Egypt, built around 1250BCE. 20,000 Egyptians had lived there.

But was this city actually built by Hebrew slaves? There is a reference in ancient Egyptian documents to a Semitic tribe captured by Pharaoh and forced to work on the city of Ramses. A clay tablet lists groups of people who were captured by the Pharaoh and one of the groups was called Habiru. Could these be the Hebrews?

Look up what Habiru actually means. Your source is using outdated ideas and relies upon people that are not archaeologists.

 

[Agnostisch]

I can say : Historical

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Unless you have good reason for this statement, I suggest it's just unwarranted. Did I tell God how best to do things... where exactly?

You told God he couldn't work through nature or people, or at least it seemed so, since you were disagreeing with me, and that's what I said. (I also left it open for God to perform miracles, so I am baffled as to why you would argue with me.)

 

[firedragon]

Do you think I said that I did?

Great. If you don't know, that's fine. Cheers.

 

[nPeace]

You should look up hieroglyphs and read your own links. None support the Exodus narrative.

Or, I could follow some people's example and always look for the nearest escape, from a discussion.
I think it's better not to have one instead.

 

[nPeace]

You told God he couldn't work through nature or people, or at least it seemed so, since you were disagreeing with me, and that's what I said. (I also left it open for God to perform miracles, so I am baffled as to why you would argue with me.)

Sorry. You are not God. Nor his prophet. Nor his spokesman. So I told God nothing you are aware of... Unless... No. You don't hear silent prayers said to God either.

 

[Shad]

Or, I could follow some people's example and always look for the nearest escape, from a discussion.

Okay so you do not know the Stele says Israel which is a post-exodus term thus does not support the Exodus.

 

[Muffled]

It would have to be allegorical.

Plagues tend to be indiscriminate, not selective based on a person's belief.

I believe the plagues are not based on a person's belief. The Plagues in Egypt reported in the Bible occurred because an all powerful God can produce them.

 

[nPeace]

Okay so you do not know the Stele says Israel which is a post-exodus term thus does not support the Exodus.

What are you talking about?
If this is not a distraction, and a means of escaping giving a coherent response to post #10, I'm King Tut.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry. You are not God. Nor his prophet. Nor his spokesman. So I told God nothing you are aware of... Unless... No. You don't hear silent prayers said to God either.

I'm not the one who told God he couldn't do something.

 

[Shad]

What are you talking about?

It seemed like your post was made to disregard my point about what is on the Stele

If this is not a distraction, and a means of escaping giving a coherent response to post #10, I'm King Tut.

The Stele states Israel which is a post-Exodus identification. It does not prove the Exodus no more than mentioning Londoner proves Sherlock was a person. Try reading the translations son provided in your own link which you didn't read.

 

[nPeace]

It seemed like your post was made to disregard my point about what is on the Stele




The Stele states Israel which is a post-Exodus identification. It does not prove the Exodus no more than mentioning Londoner proves Sherlock was a person. Try reading the translations son provided in your own link which you didn't read.

I did not mention the Nabonidus Chronicle and the Mesha Stele as proof of the Exodus, and I believe you know that.
If not, you totally misunderstood, or missed entirely what point I was making... which I doubt.
I think you see the point very clearly, which is why you apparently are avoiding a proper response to what I say... or ask.

I'll try to make it as clear as possible.
If you accept the Nabonidus Chronicle and the Mesha Stele, you either do so, because there is evidence for it's authenticity, or you simply just accept it a a historical "document" written by a "historian" (You call that faith, I think).
This is the case with all historical investigation Is that not so?

At the same time, the conclusion of each investigation is taken either because there is enough supporting evidence, or you simply just accept it [in faith].

Thus, there is no real difference between historical documents and historical relics. The investigation of both follows the same principles.
Do you disagree?
Then I would like to hear why.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'll try to make it as clear as possible.
If you accept the Nabonidus Chronicle and the Mesha Stele, you either do so, because there is evidence for it's authenticity, or you simply just accept it a a historical "document" written by a "historian" (You call that faith, I think).
This is the case with all historical investigation Is that not so?

I do not find the above to be at all clear, so let me ask you: Do you "accept" the Mesha Stele and, if so, was does that acceptance entail?

 

[nPeace]

I do not find the above to be at all clear, so let me ask you: Do you "accept" the Mesha Stele and, if so, was does that acceptance entail?

I honestly feel there is no fairness in your responses, so I will gladly answer the question after you answer the question(s) here.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I honestly feel there is no fairness in your responses, ...

OK ...

 

[Koldo]

Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?

This is how I do it: If I see any signs that it was intended as an allegory, I interpret it as an allegory. If not, I interpret it as being intended as literal. On this case, I interpret it as being intended as literal. How should I vote?

I am afraid that by voting in 'historical' that would be understood as actually believing those events transpired. I do not. I consider it to be a fabrication.