1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Sweden Disaster

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Jayhawker Soule, Oct 17, 2020.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,346
    Ratings:
    +13,223
    Religion:
    Judaism
    See: The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster, It Shouldn't Be a Model for the Rest of the World.

    The article is very long and data-rich. It also echos the warning found in The Lancet which warns:

    The arrival of a second wave and the realisation of the challenges ahead has led to renewed interest in a so-called herd immunity approach, which suggests allowing a large uncontrolled outbreak in the low-risk population while protecting the vulnerable. Proponents suggest this would lead to the development of infection-acquired population immunity in the low-risk population, which will eventually protect the vulnerable.

    This is a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence. [source; emphasis added - JS]​

    And what makes this particularly dangerous is that this fallacy is part of Trump's tri-part platform, i.e.:
    1. it is no big deal - it will wither away on its own;
    2. it is a bit deal - no one has dealt with it better than me;
    3. it is what it is - let herd immunity take care of it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  2. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +4,756
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    What disaster? People here are quite happy how authorities handled the situation. And not only Swedes:

    WHO official praises Sweden's response to coronavirus pandemic

    WHO official praises Sweden's response to coronavirus pandemic

    And for what concerns herd immunity, which is not exactly what Sweden is pursuing, I would mention a German saying: lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende.

    Also considering how long term useless all those lockdowns have been. What is happening in the rest of Europe now, is just evidence that the Swede authorities have been right from the beginning.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #2 viole, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  3. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,733
    Ratings:
    +568
    Religion:
    Writer of the Mune Shinri (Aiken religion)
    Sweden is forever being held up as some kind of model for the rest of the world. Usually based on false or outdated information.

    "Socialism works! Look at Sweden!"
    (Actually, Sweden abandoned socialism in favor of free market libertarianism)
    "X works! Look at Sweden!"
    (Probably never tried it, or tried and scoffed at it)
     
  4. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,175
    Ratings:
    +2,383
    Actually, this very limited article discusses how the WHO official was praising how Swedish people trust their government and the gov’t trusts the people. Rather than enforcing lockdowns, the gov’t just suggested people wear masks and social distance themselves, and the people did just that.
    The OP and the main thrust of the thread is the false belief that herd immunity can be successfully achieved via just letting the disease spread willy-nilly theough the popularion, until everyone (or at least >90%) are immune. :rolleyes:

    Sweden started with the “don’t mask, don’t worry” approach, and their elderly died off in droves, along with many other groups. The gov’t then switched to “OK, please mask up and social ditance” and the trusting and polite populace did just that, so their death rate fell off nicely. THAT responsiveness is what the WHO agent was praising. NOT Sweden’s initial attempt at herd immunity, or their death counts.
    WHO Director calls herd immunity 'scientifically and ethically problematic'
    Herd immunity strategy is 'simply unethical,' says head of World Health Organization
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +4,756
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    As I said, Sweden never pursuit herd immunity.

    The theory is simple: you cannot sustain a lockdown forever. Ergo, when you relax things, as you must, you are back to square one. You payed a lot, in terms of missing education, people at home for months with impact on psyche, etc. for what? Nothing, as the current situation in the rest of Europe clearly shows. They are exactly where they were in March (and panicking irrationally, again), and dead people are stacking up again, as if there has never been a lockdown to start with.

    Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that allowing this to rip through would allow us to reach herd immunity, what would be unethical about that?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #5 viole, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,346
    Ratings:
    +13,223
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Did to read the articles referenced in the OP? Did you consider the evidence?

    Or did you surf the web to find something that met with your approval?
     
  7. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +4,756
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Nope. I lived in Sweden all that time (since I am from there) to escape all those ridiculous lockdowns.

    And I can guarantee you that most Swedes were happy to not live anywhere else.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,346
    Ratings:
    +13,223
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Thank you for your honesty.
     
  9. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    9,785
    Ratings:
    +5,360
    What about "flattening the curve"?
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    66,489
    Ratings:
    +24,047
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Sweden is also a different place. Sort of "lockdown light" if I understand correctly, with urges to follow guidelines.
    When the average American says the Swedish model, they are thinking full steam ahead, life as normal, very little changes. Such as, they also keep saying herd immunity even though that doesn't seem to have been the Swedish goal either.
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    39,346
    Ratings:
    +13,223
    Religion:
    Judaism
    As of this writing, Worldfometers claims the following for the impact of COVID-19 in the United States:

    Cases: 8,313,754
    Deaths: 223,951
    Recovered: 5,405,946​

    Let's assume that these figures are reasonably accurate. It says that one person dies for every twenty-four people who recover.

    Turning now to the Mayo Clinic article on Herd Immunity we read:

    Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.​

    But if the recovery-to-death ratio holds, we're talking about 200M/24 or, roughly, 8 million deaths. That's thirty-seven times what we've seen so far. That's not a strategy; that's a travesty.
     
  12. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2018
    Messages:
    304
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    Waldensian
    From the Romanian:

    What is happening in Sweden is irrelevant. Doesn't matter.

    For the same reason it doesn't matter how Latvia or another 50+ countries are doing, which are all doing it way better then Sweden.

    Sweden is what you can call "fake news". Pretty much everything from Sweden is fake, from their number of cases, their number of dead to the blatant lie of "Sweden did not locked-down".

    They did locked-down. A LOT.

    And there is the cultural part, Swedes are probably the most indifferent and colder (pun not intended) people ever. They barely talk and socialize, compared to most other people. They are also socialist, and listen to what the government told them to do.

    They are also an isolated country : no tourism, no transport hub.

    There a gazillion reasons why nobody can do what Sweden did.

    It is impossible.

    Sweden is used by the hoaxers to prove something that is not real.

    https://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message4250712/reply82413514

    But it looks like the Swedes are carving out a new trend channel to the upside now like everyone else in the northern hemisphere:

    [​IMG]

    And the dark days of limited UVb radiation are just getting started now in the northern hemisphere.

    These are the real guys to watch now:

    [​IMG]

    By opening their schools on June 8, they've made themselves a viral metric so to speak.

    When they peak and reach an inflection point on this chart, we should have about 6 to 8 weeks to go.


    Do you want a mask?
    [​IMG]
    You're welcome.

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
    #12 Dave Watchman, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2020
  13. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    51,749
    Ratings:
    +22,341
    Religion:
    Love
    Exactly. Sweden does not have 'herd immunity', not even close.

    By delaying and slowing the spread of the virus, we're giving time for the vaccine trials and new treatments.

    And, as pointed out, if Americans were as good as Swedes at being willing to act to protect themselves and others voluntarily, we would not have the mess we're in. We now have states where hospitals and ERs are filling up and people will be dying because of the lack of care.

    Some people don't care how many die as long as they don't have to wear a bloody mask.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,467
    Ratings:
    +14,823
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Exactly, and the reality is that most scientists and medical experts in Sweden believe they made a huge mistake going for herd immunity, including the fact that we are seeing some people getting covid again. With this virus, there may not be such a thing as long-term immunity, thus only time will tell.
     
  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    66,489
    Ratings:
    +24,047
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    A lot of Americans say that about the police, and the healthcare system, education, amd food regulations. So that's not really saying much. It may even be a pretty bad thing.
     
  16. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2018
    Messages:
    304
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    Waldensian
    "Dr Tegnell has repeatedly insisted the government's objective was not to achieve rapid herd immunity but rather to slow the spread of the coronavirus to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed.

    "However, email exchanges obtained by Swedish journalists under freedom of information laws in August revealed Dr Tegnell discussed herd immunity as an objective in mid-March.
    Swedish authorities to bring in local lockdowns as coronavirus cases rise - after country resisted harsh restrictions and relied on social distancing to halt the spread at the peak of the pandemic
    • Local lockdowns mark a new approach in Swedish authorities' handling of covid
    • The Scandinavian country kept restaurants open at the start of the pandemic
    • Coronavirus cases have been gradually increasing since the start of September
    • A seven-day average of 65 per million people per day was reported on Friday
    By EMER SCULLY FOR MAILONLINE

    PUBLISHED: 14:58 EDT, 17 October 2020 | UPDATED: 17:59 EDT, 17 October 2020

    Swedish authorities want to bring in local lockdowns to stem the rapid spread ofcoronavirus in the country, experts have revealed.

    The move marks a new approach in Sweden's handling of the virus - after the country kept bars and restaurants open while the rest of the world shut down in March.

    'It's more of a lockdown situation - but a local lockdown,' Johan Nojd, who leads the infectious diseases department in Uppsala, told The Telegraph.

    It comes as several European nations put into effect new measures and restrictions in an effort to curb the second wave of the coronavirus rapidly spreading across the continent, with cases skyrocketing.

    Coronavirus cases have been gradually increasing since the start of September, dashing Sweden's hopes for immunity.​

    [​IMG]

    Coronavirus Sweden: Authorities to bring in local lockdowns as Covid cases rise | Daily Mail Online

    Do you want a mask?

    (Never mind)

    Ciao Mein
    - Dave
     
  17. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +4,756
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    Well, it is not a lot of Swedes. It is basically all Swedes.

    ciao

    - viole
     
  18. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +4,756
    Religion:
    Gnostic Atheism
    well, status today, we are not experiencing a growth even comparable to what countries that had a strong lockdown are experiencing. They are basically on square one. And panicking. Again.

    so, I wonder what they will do. Go in and out of lockdowns until they have riots on the streets? Or learn from Sweden? I would advise the latter, at least according to the evidence we have.

    a bit like wearing masks outside. No evidence that it helps. On the contrary, they give a false sense of being safe, and promotes forgetting social distancing. The only purpose they serve here is to identify the foreigners :)

    And those high peaks in your diagrams are the cases reported on Monday, which include the cases of the weekend.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #18 viole, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    66,489
    Ratings:
    +24,047
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    The point is, thats not a good argument. We can see and say the same things about Muslim countries, though I think we can both personally agree we would find such things intolerable. Even the Chinese can make a wonderful argument for Maoism (Ive read some. It's some interestingfood for thought).
     
  20. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2018
    Messages:
    304
    Ratings:
    +111
    Religion:
    Waldensian
    I don't know what they are going to do.

    We can't do what the Swedes did.

    Even they admit the price was too high.

    All I need to do is look at this graph and see it too.

    [​IMG]

    Back in March and April, people didn't know what we were up against. I would just stay home myself, and try to get over it like a bad case of the Flu. But in some cases, depending on the viral load and the condition of the individual, the aveoli can become overwhelmed.

    Our blood takes the oxygen from the tiny alveoli and gives off carbon dioxide to the alveoli. The oxygen we breathe in diffuses through the alveoli and the capillaries into the blood. Without this working properly, our blood suffers from oxygen deprivation. Hypoxia.

    At that point I'm going to die if I stay home and fight it like the Flu. People can require supplemental oxygen, or a ventilator.

    If the health care system becomes overwhelmed, triage procedures will send some people home to suffocate.

    "Back in July, Swedish experts warned the rest of the world not to do what they did.​

    And it's not an option for a country the size of the USA. Printing a death chart like the one above is unacceptable. Sweden is 10 million people, just the State of Ohio is 11 million.

    I don't know what they're going to do. Like being between the rock and a hard place, lock downs will stall the viruses progress, but will send us into a Mad Max scenario..

    Best hope is that the virus mutates itself away like all the other ones did.

    Cross your fingers.

    The next couple weeks looks interesting.

     
Loading...