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The superstitious building blocks of the Christian faith?!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I give a litmus test to know a Christian from a Muslim:
    1. There is not a single Muslim in the world who believes that Jesus died on Cross, it is so clearly mentioned in Quran.
    2. So, according to Muslims Jesus never needed to be resurrected from the dead as he never died on Cross in the first place. Hence Jesus was never God(or Son of God) as per Quran/Islam/Muhammad.
    3. There is not a single Christian, in my knowledge, who does not believe that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross for the sinful Christians.
    4. Jesus as per the Christian faith resurrected to life from the dead, and hence he was God and
    5. he sat on the right hand of God, assuming all-power.
    These are, I believe, the superstitious or mythical building blocks of the Christian faith/religion which the Christians have been made to believe by Paul in Rome. Jesus did not agree with the Pauline Christianity.

    Others are welcome to differ with me with reasons and arguments if any or without them, or correct me if they like, please.

    Regards

    ____________

    With some amendments in my post #30 on another thread "the litmus test " .
     
  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Wasnt Islam a breakaway from Christianity?
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    #3 adrian009, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  4. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    You are focusing on Jesus' fate and nature in order to call Christianity superstitious?

    That is exceedingly bold, considering that it is Islaam and the Qur'an that you are comparing Christianity to.

    Jesus' very existence as a historical person (as opposed to a fictional being) is tentative at best.

    Nor is it very likely that literally no exception for any of the statements that you make above exists among the billion Muslims or so that currently live. Realistically, many people simply don't understand and care about theology quite enough to have a firm stance on such esoteric matters. That is perhaps a bit more true in places such as Sierra Leone that have a touch of syncretism on them.

    Therefore, 1) is probably not exactly correct, although I agree that logically it is a strong, solid claim - albeit by construction not a very meaningful one.

    2) does not make any sense to me. Even taking for granted that Jesus never died, that in no way implies that he could not be an aspect of the Trinity, or the son of God (either literally or symbolically).

    Still, it is more noteworthy that, again, none of the various existing and competing claims regarding Jesus and how he relates to God, if at all, has much in the way of actual significance beyond the purely psychological effect.

    A - Jesus may have never existed except as a myth.
    B - Jesus may have existed as a literal person, presumably a heterodox rabbi that ran afoul of the Romans. That would help explain how quickly
    C - Jesus may have been in some sense a Messiah, or not. That is ultimately a matter of personal perception, and reflects little more than how much acceptance and trust Jesus might have received.
    C.1 - It is difficult to conceive of mainstream Christianity without however accepting Paul's epistles as its origin. And those, by their turn, rely on Paul's vision of Jesus - not so much for their content proper as for their doctrinal validity.
    C.2 - While many people care a great lot about whether Jesus was myth, human, son of God or an aspect of God, none of those claims has any inherent, clear meaning. They are not even necessarily at odds with each other. It is really all in the interpretation and the emotional significance lent to that interpretation.

    3) I don't quite know how to interpret. Again, it is just not a big deal either way; it lacks actual significance. But it seems to be accurate except perhaps for the word "cursed", which may be problematic.

    4) is premature in associating a ressurrection tale to a divine nature. That does not follow at all. Particularly given that Jesus is not even the only person to ressurrect even going by the Bible alone. Very few Christians would claim that Lazarus is God simply because he ressurrected.

    5) is just an allegory with no meaning except as an inspirational image. What could it actually mean to have Jesus on the right of God and all-powerful?
     
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  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Well, thanks for clearing that up, Paarsurrey.
     
  6. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Cursed yes, but not yet apparent for redemption.

    Lazarus was not resurrected, but resuscitated, and died again.
     
  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    1: This implies you know all Muslims. Were it not better to state "I believe there is not a single Muslim...." ?
    2: Again according to Muslims. Were it not better to state "According to some Muslims...."
    3: Again you know all Christians too? Okay you say "In my knowledge now". Better state "I never met", don't state "There is not a single Christian", what you think?
    4: That point seems correct english
    5: That point seems correct english

    If you first correct 1)2)3) Then we can see if your claim "These are superstitious or mythical building blocks of the Christian faith/religion" makes sense
     
    #7 stvdv, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  8. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Superstitious? Are you sure you want to point fingers here?
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    1. I believe it isn't as clear as they think. There is very little in the Qu'an about and the complete account is in the Bible. I believe there is no superstition involved, just facts.

    2. Again a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran. If one were to go by the false interpretation then the Qu'ran could be discounted completely by Christians as something made up by Muhammed.

    3. Again that isn't superstition but is Biblical fact.

    4. I believe that is incorrect. Jesus is God because He says He is and backs that up with miracles and prophecy.

    5. I believe this is not what it is usually construed to be by Christians but indeed that is what the text says.

    I believe that is incorrect. I believe Jesus is responsible for what Paul said.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Islam is a way to bring heathens into monotheism without having to burden them with too much Jewish background and to establish a law particular to the needs of Arabs.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is nothing new. There seems to be a plethora of fuzzy Islamic thinking including discounting the Bible because it denies what they think the Qu'ran says.
     
  12. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Let us examine Dueteronomy 21:22
    "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
    (King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

    There are a couple of ways of looking at this verse which are interesting.

    The first is that it says, "if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree" According to my understanding, in the Christian, Muslim and Baha'i perspectives, Jesus didn't commit a sin worthy of death.

    So one could argue that it was only to outward eyes that Jesus died an accursed death, because he hadn't commited a sin worthy of death and thus was not inwardly accursed of God.

    One may wish to argue dogmatically that no matter how blessed and faithful a man has been to God and no matter what reason he is hanged for, he will be accursed by God, "for he that is hanged is accursed of God". This however is problematic from a number of reasons.

    1. It attributes injustice to God for cursing a righteous man even if he was hung unjustly. Surely there have been many faithful souls martyred in this way such as the disciple of Jesus named Peter.
    It is an example of looking to the word of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

    2. According to the Ahmadi faith, Jesus still hangs on the cross even though he doesn't die there, thus if we are to say, "He that is hanged is accursed of God" dogmatically, then in the Ahmadi faith Jesus still hangs and is thus - God forbid - still accursed.

    Kind regards,
    Dan :)
     
    #12 danieldemol, Jul 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Superstitious or miraculous? We as Christians believe true faith should rest upon a display of God's power rather than on empty words. We believe the resurrection from the dead is an undeniable display of God's power.
     
  14. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Oh the irony
     
  15. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    May God bless you both
     
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