The strange similarities of religious 'supernatural' concepts and the things that exist at the limit

[MrMrdevincamus]

The strange similarities of religious 'supernatural' concepts and the things that exist at the limits of scientific knowledge

I became interested in religious concepts such as life after death and religious beliefs such as Christianity in part by science. So I wanted to share a couple observations an ask for feedback from those that may have similar ideas. For example we humans that believe real existence and reality begins after death have a problem. There is not even one person that can be proved to have died and communicated from the other side. It seems we can know what happens right up to death but not after. Does lack of confirmation prove death is final and there is really is nothing after death of our body ? Personally I don't think so. In astronomy, cosmology, theoretical particle physics and other scientific disciplines we have analogical situations to death, the easiest one is a black hole. Compare life to a two craft star trek to a Black Hole . We are the observation craft so we tag along behind our friends who plan on entering the BH! Upon arrival we park our space craft in a safe orbit away from the BH to observe our fearless friends enter the BH. Their craft crosses the event horizon and to our amazement their craft stops in space! a month passes then a year then decades with no movement! (actually it will seem to the outside universe to be stuck forever, due to the effects of time on the space crafts velocity which according to our friends is 99.9 to the millionth power light speed ( speed of light) but reality our friends if they are alive are experiencing time normally as they cross the event horizon and and are on their way towards the center of the BH. However we can not know what happens for sure just as in death of the body what really happens after death or a craft crosses the EH.

So that is one example. Another is eternal existence. In the normal universe time effects everything that is material, however inside a black hole according to calculations time stops, or time ceases to exist ie an atemporal realm. If we could live through everything* that would be included in entering a black hole such as spegittefication and our atoms being pulled apart and then crushed we would exist forever, at least according to the outside universe. There are theories that say we could actually survive such an thing, if the BH was rotating fast enough etc. So eternal life, our atoms being rearranged, sound familiar? How about what our bible says about God? God is eternal. And in revelations (of John) the scripture seems to be talking about the transmutation of matter (the earth etc) into something now unknown! A new earth etc. Also, the Christian God promises us eternal life. I have only mentioned a couple of correlations, there are more. Its fun to think about, even if its just a coincidence. But I think such things may be far more than the simple happenstance.

God bless our forum and lets pray for peace ~

; {>

 

[George-ananda]

There is not even one person that can be proved to have died and communicated from the other side.

Although we are ultimately on the same side, I have to disagree with the above sentence. I have become a believer in the afterlife based on the paranormal evidence. I believe the so-called dead have communicated with the living and that it can even be shown in controlled experiments with gifted mediums. Here is a link to some of the evidence that has convinced me: Afterlife Evidence

 

[Nakosis]

The strange similarities of religious 'supernatural' concepts and the things that exist at the limits of scientific knowledge

I became interested in religious concepts such as life after death and religious beliefs such as Christianity in part by science. So I wanted to share a couple observations an ask for feedback from those that may have similar ideas. For example we humans that believe real existence and reality begins after death have a problem. There is not even one person that can be proved to have died and communicated from the other side. It seems we can know what happens right up to death but not after.
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Well there's the Tibetan Book of the Dead...
The Tibetan Book of the Dead and Near-Death Experiences

My personal view is kind of along these lines...
Robert Lanza » Biocentrism / Robert Lanza’s Theory of Everything

Not to say anything is proven. I've more a wait and see attitude.

If I'm right though, (in my imagined scenario) you'll find yourself living a different existence with little to no knowledge of your current life. IOW, you'll be right back at square one wondering if that life is to be the totality of your existence.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The strange similarities of religious 'supernatural' concepts and the things that exist at the limits of scientific knowledge

I became interested in religious concepts such as life after death and religious beliefs such as Christianity in part by science. So I wanted to share a couple observations an ask for feedback from those that may have similar ideas. For example we humans that believe real existence and reality begins after death have a problem. There is not even one person that can be proved to have died and communicated from the other side. It seems we can know what happens right up to death but not after. Does lack of confirmation prove death is final and there is really is nothing after death of our body ? Personally I don't think so. In astronomy, cosmology, theoretical particle physics and other scientific disciplines we have analogical situations to death, the easiest one is a black hole. Compare life to a two craft star trek to a Black Hole . We are the observation craft so we tag along behind our friends who plan on entering the BH! Upon arrival we park our space craft in a safe orbit away from the BH to observe our fearless friends enter the BH. Their craft crosses the event horizon and to our amazement their craft stops in space! a month passes then a year then decades with no movement! (actually it will seem to the outside universe to be stuck forever, due to the effects of time on the space crafts velocity which according to our friends is 99.9 to the millionth power light speed ( speed of light) but reality our friends if they are alive are experiencing time normally as they cross the event horizon and and are on their way towards the center of the BH. However we can not know what happens for sure just as in death of the body what really happens after death or a craft crosses the EH.

So that is one example. Another is eternal existence. In the normal universe time effects everything that is material, however inside a black hole according to calculations time stops, or time ceases to exist ie an atemporal realm. If we could live through everything* that would be included in entering a black hole such as spegittefication and our atoms being pulled apart and then crushed we would exist forever, at least according to the outside universe. There are theories that say we could actually survive such an thing, if the BH was rotating fast enough etc. So eternal life, our atoms being rearranged, sound familiar? How about what our bible says about God? God is eternal. And in revelations (of John) the scripture seems to be talking about the transmutation of matter (the earth etc) into something now unknown! A new earth etc. Also, the Christian God promises us eternal life. I have only mentioned a couple of correlations, there are more. Its fun to think about, even if its just a coincidence. But I think such things may be far more than the simple happenstance.

God bless our forum and lets pray for peace ~

; {>

There's nothing similar whatsoever.

Supernatural ideology dosent even come remotely close to factual scientific discovery including hypothesis which are based on factual evidences. As for the supernatural, there is no such basis to go on whatsoever.

Black holes have no supernatural quality to them.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

These "similarities" primarily exist in the minds and imaginations of people who misunderstand both science and the supernatural.

There is a long tradition of trying to connect "sciency" concepts and words to magic and superstition, in order to somehow borrow scientific validity through semantical vagueness and bait-and-switch.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of connecting the magical and mystical with science, and thoroughly enjoy fiction which artfully and skillfully applies and explores such ideas. However, such fun and interesting ideas remain firmly in the realm of fiction, for the time being - with no sign of this changing any time soon.

 

[BSM1]

Although we are ultimately on the same side, I have to disagree with the above sentence. I have become a believer in the afterlife based on the paranormal evidence. I believe the so-called dead have communicated with the living and that it can even be shown in controlled experiments with gifted mediums. Here is a link to some of the evidence that has convinced me: Afterlife Evidence

I have seen this first hand as my wife communicates with energies (for lack of a better term) of those that have passed. They are usually relatives of people that we have just met so she has no prior knowledge of this person as a "living" being. They are prominent if there are unresolved feelings between the parties. After all these years I just take it in stride. It is, however, reassuring that we continue in some form after we pass.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Only common ground between supernatural and science. Its the fact that there is the unexplainable and the mysterious, coupled with wonderment and curiousity that follows.

Unfortunately, as much as I personally enjoy and muse over alleged supernatural happenings in its own right, and at times really wish things like that are true, it's no denying there's an incompatibility whenever ideology is expanded upon ideology in hopeless fashion vs. those ideologies by which a testable platform (hypopthesis) can be established through various experimentation that can be objectively used effectively to further investigate and expand our understanding, and any results a givin hypothesis brings to the table in the future.

There's no testable platform for the supernatural to expand upon that can be demonstrated and repeated unlike that in science, so there's no similarity for any proper comparism with science and the supernatural.

Trick flashlights, electro-meters, psychics, priests, sage, brain waves, infra red, and loud radio static....... Not very useful "scientifically" by which to base any supernatural conclusions in order to establish a proper hypopthesis and call it science.

 

[George-ananda]

I have seen this first hand as my wife communicates with energies (for lack of a better term) of those that have passed. They are usually relatives of people that we have just met so she has no prior knowledge of this person as a "living" being. They are prominent if there are unresolved feelings between the parties. After all these years I just take it in stride. It is, however, reassuring that we continue in some form after we pass.

There is a strong meme in society that 'nobody has ever come back to tell us'. I think that meme is false. (If I am using the word 'meme' correctly).

 

[Twilight Hue]

Almost forgot to mention lasers. You need lasers.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Although we are ultimately on the same side, I have to disagree with the above sentence. I have become a believer in the afterlife based on the paranormal evidence. I believe the so-called dead have communicated with the living and that it can even be shown in controlled experiments with gifted mediums. Here is a link to some of the evidence that has convinced me: Afterlife Evidence

Thanks for the kind words George-a., I was afraid I might get some feedback on that comment. I experienced a near death situation which was so profound, so amazing I was convinced to reject my strong agnostic views and accept a religious belief. Actually I it would have been accurate to label me an atheist when it happened. However except for the NDE's I wasn't aware of any other evidences. Also I am aware of the great neurosurgeon Penfield who has called 'the father of neuroscience' flipped from believing the mind and brain were one to believing the mind was separate from the brain and existed independently. Here is a quote from one of his books;
“For my own part, after years of striving to explain the mind on the basis of brain-action alone, I have come to the conclusion that it is simpler (and far easier and logical) if one adopts the hypothesis that our being does consist of two fundamental elements” (80).
Read more: God and Mind/Body Dualism | Reasonable Faith
Or go to his book ie ; The Mystery of the Mind: A Critical Study of Consciousness and the Human Brain ...... The Mystery of the Mind: A Critical Study of Consciousness and the Human Brain: Wilder Penfield: 9780691023601: Amazon.com: Books

Lastly as time permits I will view your suggested read, thanks for your reply.

: {>

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

There's nothing similar whatsoever.

Supernatural ideology dosent even come remotely close to factual scientific discovery including hypothesis which are based on factual evidences. As for the supernatural, there is no such basis to go on whatsoever.

Black holes have no supernatural quality to them.

It seems you missed my point. When something is an analog it usually only shares certain similarities etc, its not a direct comparison.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

These "similarities" primarily exist in the minds and imaginations of people who misunderstand both science and the supernatural.

There is a long tradition of trying to connect "sciency" concepts and words to magic and superstition, in order to somehow borrow scientific validity through semantical vagueness and bait-and-switch.

Don't get me wrong - I love the idea of connecting the magical and mystical with science, and thoroughly enjoy fiction which artfully and skillfully applies and explores such ideas. However, such fun and interesting ideas remain firmly in the realm of fiction, for the time being - with no sign of this changing any time soon.

Huh? Another that missed my point ! Anyway imo my thread is correct in its usage of the concept of analogy. I did not claim any type of connection with supernatural except as a analogical comparison. Try looking up analogical or analogy. Allow me ; Analog...noun...
a thing that is comparable to something else in significant respects:
"works of art were seen as an analogy for works of nature"

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[Guy Threepwood]

The strange similarities of religious 'supernatural' concepts and the things that exist at the limits of scientific knowledge

I became interested in religious concepts such as life after death and religious beliefs such as Christianity in part by science. So I wanted to share a couple observations an ask for feedback from those that may have similar ideas. For example we humans that believe real existence and reality begins after death have a problem. There is not even one person that can be proved to have died and communicated from the other side. It seems we can know what happens right up to death but not after. Does lack of confirmation prove death is final and there is really is nothing after death of our body ? Personally I don't think so. In astronomy, cosmology, theoretical particle physics and other scientific disciplines we have analogical situations to death, the easiest one is a black hole. Compare life to a two craft star trek to a Black Hole . We are the observation craft so we tag along behind our friends who plan on entering the BH! Upon arrival we park our space craft in a safe orbit away from the BH to observe our fearless friends enter the BH. Their craft crosses the event horizon and to our amazement their craft stops in space! a month passes then a year then decades with no movement! (actually it will seem to the outside universe to be stuck forever, due to the effects of time on the space crafts velocity which according to our friends is 99.9 to the millionth power light speed ( speed of light) but reality our friends if they are alive are experiencing time normally as they cross the event horizon and and are on their way towards the center of the BH. However we can not know what happens for sure just as in death of the body what really happens after death or a craft crosses the EH.

So that is one example. Another is eternal existence. In the normal universe time effects everything that is material, however inside a black hole according to calculations time stops, or time ceases to exist ie an atemporal realm. If we could live through everything* that would be included in entering a black hole such as spegittefication and our atoms being pulled apart and then crushed we would exist forever, at least according to the outside universe. There are theories that say we could actually survive such an thing, if the BH was rotating fast enough etc. So eternal life, our atoms being rearranged, sound familiar? How about what our bible says about God? God is eternal. And in revelations (of John) the scripture seems to be talking about the transmutation of matter (the earth etc) into something now unknown! A new earth etc. Also, the Christian God promises us eternal life. I have only mentioned a couple of correlations, there are more. Its fun to think about, even if its just a coincidence. But I think such things may be far more than the simple happenstance.

God bless our forum and lets pray for peace ~

; {>

I those are good points, there are many scientific phenomena we know of today that were once considered inherently supernatural, and 'religious pseudoscience' :
- the creation event/ big bang/ a beginning to time itself- quantum mechanics- mysterious guiding forces predetermining outcomes, modern communication systems- linking millions of people simultaneously,

It's not that much of a stretch anymore, to conceive of hidden realities behind the superficial ones we experience. I find it interesting how many atheists today are open to the same thing, even forms of ID behind our universe. The distinctions between this and God can get pretty blurred/ semantic.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Only common ground between supernatural and science. Its the fact that there is the unexplainable and the mysterious, coupled with wonderment and curiousity that follows.

Unfortunately, as much as I personally enjoy and muse over alleged supernatural happenings in its own right, and at times really wish things like that are true, it's no denying there's an incompatibility whenever ideology is expanded upon ideology in hopeless fashion vs. those ideologies by which a testable platform (hypopthesis) can be established through various experimentation that can be objectively used effectively to further investigate and expand our understanding, and any results a givin hypothesis brings to the table in the future.

There's no testable platform for the supernatural to expand upon that can be demonstrated and repeated unlike that in science, so there's no similarity for any proper comparism with science and the supernatural.

Trick flashlights, electro-meters, psychics, priests, sage, brain waves, infra red, and loud radio static....... Not very useful "scientifically" by which to base any supernatural conclusions in order to establish a proper hypopthesis and call it science.

Well, its not only dishonest paranormal operators that deal in fraud that is mucking up the field for the honest investigators and others that are genuinely attempting discovery of the unknown via supernatural and supernormal processes. Science too has its own purveyors of cold fusion, fake fossils, fraud and misdirection. And lets not forget that what was once according to the tenured scientific community 'supernatural claims' by prevaricators are now hard science facts. I can't help but think if the scientific establishment would have investigated more and ridiculed less our science would be more e advanced than it is. That is the down side of the western world choosing LP over scientific metaphysics and other disciples. As the tools of science are becoming less and less effective n discovery etc in certain areas, theoretical particle physics for example, it would behoove them not to throw the cat out with the bath water....again. Mr Godel would agree, ain't that right Mr Godel?

; {>

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I those are good points, there are many scientific phenomena we know of today that were once considered inherently supernatural, and 'religious pseudoscience' :
- the creation event/ big bang/ a beginning to time itself- quantum mechanics- mysterious guiding forces predetermining outcomes, modern communication systems- linking millions of people simultaneously,

It's not that much of a stretch anymore, to conceive of hidden realities behind the superficial ones we experience. I find it interesting how many atheists today are open to the same thing, even forms of ID behind our universe. The distinctions between this and God can get pretty blurred/ semantic.

SUCCESS! Yes indeed ! I am happy you unlike some others do not confuse my excitement of this' blurring' as another uneducated theist saying 'God did it' as a substitute for describing the unknown. Even as a believer I am sure God could change natural law, its my belief that God abhors such intervention in the natural world, for whatever reasons. What seems to be happening instead is as we advance our science we are getting closer and closer to finding evidence of Gods handiwork. Yes the latter is speculation, but I do know the difference. Maybe when we build a SCSC as big as our solar system or even the milky way it will produce the energies needed to describe true TOE or even to find God on our own terms? Even better when Jesus comes back he can save us a lot of money and tell us how Father did it....lol ~


: {>

 

[Guy Threepwood]

SUCCESS! Yes indeed ! I am happy you unlike some others do not confuse my excitement of this' blurring' as another uneducated theist saying 'God did it' as a substitute for describing the unknown. Even as a believer I am sure God could change natural law, its my belief that God abhors such intervention in the natural world, for whatever reasons. What seems to be happening instead is as we advance our science we are getting closer and closer to finding evidence of Gods handiwork. Yes the latter is speculation, but I do know the difference. Maybe when we build a SCSC as big as our solar system or even the milky way it will produce the energies needed to describe true TOE or even to find God on our own terms? Even better when Jesus comes back he can save us a lot of money and tell us how Father did it....lol ~


: {>

Yes, there are probably many more of us than are represented on forums like these! I think in a sense the reductionist/ materialist model of reality peaked quite a while ago, with classical physics and Darwinism. The simplest explanations are certainly the most tempting, but not always adequate!

Many cosmologists, including atheists, have remarked on how curious it is, that the universe so lends itself to our investigation and understanding.- while challenging our curiosity and ingenuity to it's limits, drawing us out beyond ourselves to continually learn more about creation. What better way to fully appreciate anything?

And so the answer cannot be too obvious, it's for us to figure out, and we must always have the free choice to get it wrong, - though I agree, a clearer picture is beginning to emerge, we are getting down to things that almost seem like dead give-aways at this point!

 

[Thumper]

"One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word." ~ Lazarus Long

I would highly recommend Neil deGrasse Tyson's excellent rant on "The Perimeter of Ignorance" -

It's long, but well worth it!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Well, its not only dishonest paranormal operators that deal in fraud that is mucking up the field for the honest investigators and others that are genuinely attempting discovery of the unknown via supernatural and supernormal processes. Science too has its own purveyors of cold fusion, fake fossils, fraud and misdirection. And lets not forget that what was once according to the tenured scientific community 'supernatural claims' by prevaricators are now hard science facts. I can't help but think if the scientific establishment would have investigated more and ridiculed less our science would be more e advanced than it is. That is the down side of the western world choosing LP over scientific metaphysics and other disciples. As the tools of science are becoming less and less effective n discovery etc in certain areas, theoretical particle physics for example, it would behoove them not to throw the cat out with the bath water....again. Mr Godel would agree, ain't that right Mr Godel?

; {>

I'd certainly would like to know some examples of "supernatural" claims that have subsequently become scientific fact and accepted by the tenured scientific community . Sounds like debunking and pointing out the actual truth of the matter as new information is introduced as being more the case.

Like falling of the edge of the earth..... ?

Whatever the case may be, I'm fairly
positive claims didn't reflect it's supernatural description put forth in the context they were givin, and settled through the process of scientific investigation.

Of course there are incidents of politicizing among academic members, but that's where peer review comes in and critiqued outcomes are rejected or corrected for the greater part.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Yes, there are probably many more of us than are represented on forums like these! I think in a sense the reductionist/ materialist model of reality peaked quite a while ago, with classical physics and Darwinism. The simplest explanations are certainly the most tempting, but not always adequate!

Yes understood and mostly agree. Have you read much about the turn of the century when logical empiricism and the modern scientific method was being hashed out in places like Vienna with its famous Vienna circle of leading philosophers and scientists. There was also in attendance one or two searing intellects equal or superior to theirs who disagreed that LP was the only way to describe reality etc. Nevertheless 'Logical empiricism' became the way all science would be conducted from then to now. Lp has had its heyday, now perhaps it will partner up with true metaphysics and a new era of discovery will begin.

Many cosmologists, including atheists, have remarked on how curious it is, that the universe so lends itself to our investigation and understanding.- while challenging our curiosity and ingenuity to it's limits, drawing us out beyond ourselves to continually learn more about creation. What better way to fully appreciate anything? And so the answer cannot be too obvious, it's for us to figure out, and we must always have the free choice to get it wrong, - though I agree, a clearer picture is beginning to emerge, we are getting down to things that almost seem like dead give-aways at this point!

Very well said ! Or maybe a new physics will emerge and allow us new tools our science seem to desperately need. I highly doubt those tools will be metaphysics, but what may happen is as metaphysics are legitimized and more and more of our brilliant scientists apply their minds to it MP may give our scientists the fresh new vistas and freedom to create and use those new tools for discovery.

; {>

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

I'd certainly would like to know some examples of "supernatural" claims that have subsequently become scientific fact and accepted by the tenured scientific community . Sounds like debunking and pointing out the actual truth of the matter as new information is introduced as being more the case.

Like falling of the edge of the earth..... ?

Whatever the case may be, I'm fairly
positive claims didn't reflect it's supernatural description put forth in the context they were givin, and settled through the process of scientific investigation.

Of course there are incidents of politicizing among academic members, but that's where peer review comes in and critiqued outcomes are rejected or corrected for the greater part.

Continental Drift/Plate tectonics, the discovery and the discoverer* (see notes for sources) both ridiculed calling it hocus pocous (sp ck lol) smoke and mirrors (in that the continents seemed to fit together ) careers ruined ...

ummm...

supernatural claim; the earth was created ....man was it ridiculed, even Einstein said the universe was static and eternal ...oops thats three more!

Why don't you use Google like everyone else? There are many more, take my word for it.
Until then remember;

'what is science today is tomorrows quaint myths ~'

you can use that if you want...

NOTES..
Alfred Wegener - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wegener
Alfred Wegener was born in Berlin on 1 November 1880 as the youngest of five children in a clergyman's family. His father, Richard Wegener,

1. When Continental Drift Was Considered Pseudoscience ...
   www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-continental-drift-was...
   When Continental Drift Was Considered Pseudoscience More than 100 years ago, a German scientist was ridiculed for advancing the shocking idea that the continents …
   

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