The Story of Job- God's Bet With the Devil

[Thief]

This brings up another issue: the Book of Job definitely makes Satan appear to be a faithful servant of God.

This is error.
A separation has already taken place.
As the Sons of God gather...the devil appears among them.
God voices His objection...'What are you doing here?!'
(in the old English....'from whence comest thou?")

Why did God proceed in the first place? Job wasn't even an issue until God brought him up. Didn't God foresee what Satan would say once God mentioned Job?

Job is thrown into the discussion in comparison.
To say the presence of Job....a servant...would be better than allowing the devil to present himself as a Son of God.
This ....of course is an insult.

The story describes something other than your interpretation: God boasts to the angels and Satan about how good a man Job is. Satan then questions how good he really is. God's pride can't take this, so he suggests the test to show that he's right... despite the horrible personal cost to Job and all those around him. God even sets the rules for the test and gives Satan explicit permission to inflict horrible suffering on Job's loved ones.

God carries a huge amount of the responsibility and guilt in this story.

Never was the conflict, a test of Job.
God knew His servant.....Job would not fail.

The story is more the relationship between God and a fallen angel.
It also demonstrates God's expectation of a man...any man....
no matter what.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Some of these Bible stories are easier to understand than others, I'll have to admit. Was there really a man called Jobe? I don't know.

As a Christian I knew on the basis on what I was taught that the story was intended to illustrate the importance of maintaining faith and trust in God no matter what is happening to you, and was IMO meant to inspire and up lift a person in times of distress for the believer. During that time, I actually believed it to be a true account of Job.

I later started to look closer at stories like this as more of a skeptic during my CoF and found there is understanding or lack thereof dependent on the approach. I would personally refer to Jewish sources more than Christian as to whether Job was a real person experiencing a real account ("Historical"), and it appears that Job was regarded for the most part as being a real person and had experienced the events described as written, of which his existence as a real figure is internally evidenced further by the multiple mentions of his name in other passages elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible.

A common Christian supporting argument was that there was no such thing as a pious fraud in that if this was simply an allegory to emphasize the character of God, the figurative and metaphorical accounts would obviously not work well. It is therefore taken as history not conducive to the areas of the Bible where figurative language is intentionally used of which this type of language is absent from the story.

I would not of had a problem with it at the time were it not for the nuances that threw things into disarray further fueling my skepticism on the story's validity and subsequent dismissal of Christianity as a faith.

Personally and consequently I've regarded this story as a fictional account coupled with a lack of evidence as to whether Job had been actually a real person on which the story is based.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think it's humanly possible to do what was done to Jobe.

No, probably not. What happened to Job was much, much worse than simply having his house burn down... so if God's treatment of Job was okay, then the situation I described would be okay as well, right?

Never was the conflict, a test of Job.
God knew His servant.....Job would not fail.

That doesn't mean that Job wasn't tested; it means the test was futile. I think this makes the story more immoral, not less.

 

[Thief]

That doesn't mean that Job wasn't tested; it means the test was futile. I think this makes the story more immoral, not less.

Perhaps the terms of the story are getting in the way.

Let's say it's my house.
On some previous occasion I had you thrown out.

But you return...as if that's alright...and you have no regard...at all.

Instead of having you thrown out ...again....
Instead of troubling my Sons that They dirty their hands on you...
I simply ask...what are you doing here?

You put off my question...in a response...as if my word, matters not...even in my own house.

I then insult you....Have you considered the least of my servants?....
implying he is better, and preferred.

You then insinuate Job is not all that....simply a spoiled servant.

I know better.
And when I stand back and allow you what you will...save kill him....
I know he will no falter.

Therefore it is not a test of Job.
It would be a proving...of your own frailty, your own shallow pride.

And the proving by your own misdeed, that you are not worthy of my
house...my comfort...or any thing else that is mine.


God did not have anything to prove.
Neither did Job.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps the terms of the story are getting in the way.

Let's say it's my house.
On some previous occasion I had you thrown out.

But you return...as if that's alright...and you have no regard...at all.

Instead of having you thrown out ...again....
Instead of troubling my Sons that They dirty their hands on you...
I simply ask...what are you doing here?

Where are you getting this "I have thrown you out" stuff? You realize that there's nothing in the text of the Book of Job that even hints that God and Satan are not on friendly terms, right?

All God asks is what Satan has been doing.

You put off my question...in a response...as if my word, matters not...even in my own house.

I then insult you....Have you considered the least of my servants?....
implying he is better, and preferred.

I think you're reading a lot of stuff into the text that simply isn't there.

You then insinuate Job is not all that....simply a spoiled servant.

I know better.
And when I stand back and allow you what you will...save kill him....
I know he will no falter.

Therefore it is not a test of Job.
It would be a proving...of your own frailty, your own shallow pride.

And the proving by your own misdeed, that you are not worthy of my
house...my comfort...or any thing else that is mine.

The mere fact that God knows Job will pass the test does not make it not a test.

Maybe it's a test of Satan as well, but that doesn't make it not a test of Job in the first place.

God did not have anything to prove.
Neither did Job.

So God inflicted that suffering on Job and his family completely in vain. Like I said before, that makes God's actions in the story worse, not better.

 

[Thief]

Where are you getting this "I have thrown you out" stuff? You realize that there's nothing in the text of the Book of Job that even hints that God and Satan are not on friendly terms, right?....No

All God asks is what Satan has been doing.

Try taking it personally....'what are YOU doing here?!'

I think you're reading a lot of stuff into the text that simply isn't there.
And you fail to go far enough with it.

The mere fact that God knows Job will pass the test does not make it not a test.
Testing would imply the possibility of fault and failure.
God knew Job.

Maybe it's a test of Satan (correct...and the devil failed)as well, but that doesn't make it not a test of Job in the first place.(no)


So God inflicted that suffering on Job and his family completely in vain. Like I said before, that makes God's actions in the story worse, not better.

God didn't do anything. The devil is doing the harm.

 

[smokydot]

Perhaps the terms of the story are getting in the way.

The only thing getting in the way is your shallow human "interpretation" of what is a simple straight-forward account.

Let's say it's my house.
On some previous occasion I had you thrown out.
But you return...as if that's alright...and you have no regard...at all.
Instead of having you thrown out ...again....
Instead of troubling my Sons that They dirty their hands on you...
I simply ask...what are you doing here?
You put off my question...in a response...as if my word, matters not...even in my own house.
I then insult you....Have you considered the least of my servants?....
implying he is better, and preferred.
You then insinuate Job is not all that....simply a spoiled servant.
I know better.
And when I stand back and allow you what you will...save kill him....
I know he will no falter.
Therefore it is not a test of Job.
It would be a proving...of your own frailty, your own shallow pride.
And the proving by your own misdeed, that you are not worthy of my
house...my comfort...or any thing else that is mine.
God did not have anything to prove.
Neither did Job.

As Luther said to Erasmus: Your thoughts of God are too human.

 

[Thief]

The only thing getting in the way is your shallow human "interpretation" of what is a simple straight-forward account.
As Luther said to Erasmus: Your thoughts of God are too human.

On the contrary....my version allows God to be...God.

How would you like to be blind sided by a bad situation?
Would you not ask of God...'why'?

The 'object' human in the story was Job.
He didn't have a clue.

How about you?

 

[Thief]

This story of Job seems to confuse people.

As if no one knows the difference between a spiritual idea....
and a wager.

I can see why people want to think of it that way.
As Job seems to be a target.

But there is no wager.
God has nothing to lose.
The Sons of God are silent.
And though Job lost a great deal...he was restored.

The only person in the story with something to prove was the devil.
But he had nothing to gain.
His self esteem was down....questioned about his presence when making an
appearance with the Sons of God.
Being compared to a mortal servant did not make him feel any better.

But the Devil's relationship with God is the actual issue of the story.

And in spite of all said and done....the story ends as it began.
The Devil remains an outcast.
And Job remains God's servant.

Even if the Devil had 'won'...in what way would his situation improve?

What would you do with an aggressor that grieves your servants into denial?

 

[smokydot]

On the contrary....my version allows God to be...God.
How would you like to be blind sided by a bad situation?
Would you not ask of God...'why'?
The 'object' human in the story was Job.
He didn't have a clue.
How about you?

Job isn't the clueless one here.

The clueless one here is the one who doesn't understand the whole Bible.

 

[Thief]

Job isn't the clueless one here.

The clueless one here is the one who doesn't understand the whole Bible.

The Devil understands the whole bible.
How about you?

 

[smokydot]

The Devil understands the whole bible.
How about you?

And you?

 

[Thief]

And you?

Not much retort....on your part.

You do realize...this late in the thread....

You're not gaining any ground.
Recital of scripture is insufficient.

Still think what happened to Job was a bet?
And the devil is not at your heel?...I suppose....

 

[javajo]

I believe in the end after God speaks to Job and Job realizes how great God is, and he covers his mouth and shuts up, the lesson is learned that we have an awesome, almighty God. Halleluiah!

 

[smokydot]

Not much retort....on your part.
You do realize...this late in the thread....
You're not gaining any ground.
Recital of scripture is insufficient.
Still think what happened to Job was a bet?

Do you?

And the devil is not at your heel?...I suppose....

And your heel?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which leads to the question as to why God needed to prove a point to the Devil?

Is it prove a point, or show Satan that unlike Satan and Adam there are faithful ones of integrity to God?

Job 2v4 says 'a man'. By saying 'a' man implies all of us are involved in Satan's challenge or issue raised.

Verse 5 shows that Satan is also challenging us about health.
If we loose health [touch bone and flesh] touch our flesh and bones
[the person himself] and see if we would still worship God.

In other words, also apply enough pressure to our minds and hearts and sooner or later a man will not be faithful or will break his integrity to God.

Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
-Proverbs 27v11

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe in the end after God speaks to Job and Job realizes how great God is, and he covers his mouth and shuts up, the lesson is learned that we have an awesome, almighty God. Halleluiah!

Good point ^above^ because at Job [32v2 B] Job wrongly declared his own soul as righteous rather than God, but God did not withhold blessings from Job.
After all, God was aware of just how much Job intensely suffered at Satan's hand. Then at Job [42v12] we read how blessed Job was in this world.
How much more so will Job be rewarded in the world to come during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
-Rev 22v2

 

[Midnight Pete]

God didn't do anything. The devil is doing the harm.

Yes, but only with God's permission. Everything Satan did to Job was pre-approved by God first, or so the story goes.

 

[Thief]

Yes, but only with God's permission. Everything Satan did to Job was pre-approved by God first, or so the story goes.

You are dreadfully confusing terms...all in one sentence.

Allowance is NOT approval.

 

[gnostic]

No where in the Book of Job, showed Satan as God's enemy.

In fact, nothing in the entire OT Bible, or the Tanakh, demonstrate that Satan as being enemy of God. Only in the NT do we find Satan being in opposition to God.

Everything about Satan being God's enemy in the OT, is only through interpretation, clouded by Christian scripture and Christian perspective.

If you seriously believe that Satan is the personification or incarnation of evil, then you will have to say that God is also personification of evil, since it was God's decision to test Job, even if it mean the death of Job's children.

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Do you see that verse 1:11?

That's indication that was Satan striking out in God's will, not on Satan's whim, as indicated by God's reply in verse 12.

And do you even recall the 1st thing God's said to Job, Thief?

“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?

Clearly in verse 38:2, it was God's plan to test Job. That Satan had his herd and children killed, and inflicted Job with terrible skin disease, only show that Satan was God's instrument, not his opponent; because it was God's decree that such test to take place. And then it follow with God long rant that all of it was his doing (chapters 38 and 39); God boasting that he could do all these things that puny humans like Job could never do.

He then challenged Job in verse 40:

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

Ask any Jewish member here, Thief, and you will find that they would not only disagree with your interpretation of the Book of Job, but the role of Satan.