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Featured The start of the 'Jewish Sabbat', is Saturday evening, by our Calendar

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Oct 4, 2018.

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  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    1 Corinthians 16:2
    Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    [KJV]

    The word there is Sabbath, being interpreted as 'week'.

    Either way, you interpret this verse, it is refuting your argument.

    Ie, if it means, that there are two Sabbaths, a Saturday, Sabbath, and a Sunday Sabbath, it refutes your argument.

    Interpreted as 'first day', non -Sabbath, it refutes your argument, [as clearly that would mean the Christians are observing Sunday, as a Sabbath.
     
    #41 Desert Snake, Oct 6, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Replacement theology —“true” Israel hokum.
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    One can't fail to be a priestly people. One can be sinful priests, and this is rather a given, since we have a yetzer hara like everyone else. But the status of priesthood is ordained by God, not earned by our actions.

    Well, yes and no. The 10 were scattered. But a remnant were kept.

    1. The original inhabitants of the Kingdom of Judah were the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as landowners and Levi in the cities (indeed today you will find many Jews with the surnames of Levi etc and Cohen etc.).
    2. When the northern Kingdom of Israel was demolished, many refugees fled south to Judah and were taken in. These members of the 10 tribes became citizens of Judah and went into captivity along with Judah. Their descendants are part of the Jewish people today, although they have intermarried.

    Yes, it is amazing how the state of Israel, in looking for lost Jewish peoples, has turned up a few. We have found, for example, B'nei Menashe in India and Beit Israel in Ethiopia.

    God could, but he doesn't. In Deuteronomy 17:8-13, God gives authority to the priest and judges (rabbis) to discern legal matters, which would include tribal status.

    To the best of my knowledge, the tribe of Asher has not been found. Those people who are descendents or who claim to be descendants, no longer use the names of the original tribes. You can find the list of the claimants here: Ten Lost Tribes - Wikipedia

    My *guess* is that you are from Belgium? and engaged in the anti-Semitic and blatantly unhistorical notion of Anglo-Israelism. It's so ludicrous that I'm not even going to give it the time of day. If you are curious, look into it further yourself -- no credible historian takes it seriously as it is made up entirely out of whole cloth.

    Regardless of whether you believe in a nefarious idea or not, I care about you as a person.

    Shalom
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The word is NOT Sabbath, but Sabaton, which means the interval between two sabbaths, IOW a week. The verse means to save up on the first week (or alternatively, the first day of the week), not the Sabbath. Trust me, I just took the time to look this up.

    There was simply no way that Christians back then thought that the first day of the week was Shabbat. Now they did observe The Lord's Day on the first day of the week -- they gathered for Eucharist on the Lord's Day. But the Lord's Day was not the Sabbath. The evolution of Jewish Christians keeping the Shabbat to Gentile Christians worshiping on Sunday was always something I considered worth studying.
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Conforming the text, to the current Jewish sabbath methodology, makes the text contradictory, and the explanations are a hodge podge of obscurities.
    • why say 'new day approaching', when you're halfway into a day.
    • why switch 'day' reference, mid sentence
    • 'sabbath', isn't a vague word in the Hebrew, yet it is vague , in Greek?
    • the greek text uses a vague word, from another language, when they could just write what they mean, in Greek?[the first day

    • the explanations, literally make the Bible, false.

    It's obviously nonsense.
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    They're clearly using the same word, in the text, for both Saturday, and Sunday 'Sabbaths'. That is why one is the 'first Shabbat'.
    the belief in three days and three nights, conforms to only the Solar calendar methodology, Matthew 28:1
    Your methodology is switching 'day' reference, mid-sentence.
    Matthew 12:30
    John 2:19
    The writers of the Bible, were clearly not contradicting their own beliefs, and your methodology, does contradict the Bible. Whether one believes the Bible, or not, the writers and traditional belief, all conform to the three days, or three days, and nights, belief, to Resurrection.
    The text only conforms to the Solar Calendar , Christian, methodology, with days starting at the early hours.
    It's obvious, from Matthew 28:1.
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Luke 23:56

    Note,
    Luke 24:1

    • There is , Luke 23:56, the Sabbath that you are saying, means the week interval. Then, in Luke 24:1, the first of the 'week', as interpreted.. Now, obviously, you are incorrect.

    Ps. it isn't even Sabbaton , in the other verse, regardless.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There is nothiing of the sort going on, and your thinking is anything but clear. Greek has two different words. Sabbato means Sabbath. That word is not used in the verse. The Greek word that is used is Sabbaton, which means the days between Sabbaths, aka the week. Again, I looked this up, so I am confident what I'm saying. It's very simple to use a Strong's concordance, have google translate back and forth English/Greek, and I lucked out finding a Greek teacher in a Christian chat to confirm what I had learned. In addition to all that, we have the expert translators of all the different Bible versions out there who translate it week. I'm 100% sure at this point. There is no such thing in the Bible as a Sunday Sabbath.
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Luke 23:56 would be better translated, "they rested from the week." We rest ON the Shabbat, but what do we rest FROM? We rest FROM the work we have done throughout the week.
     
  10. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    **SIGH** It doesn't matter which calendar you're using, Roman or Jewish, Jesus was dead for three days using inclusive reckoning.
    ROMAN: Jesus dies on Friday, is dead on Saturday, and then on Sunday, Jesus is dead and then rises. Jesus is dead for 3 days, using inclusive reckoning.
    JEWISH: Jesus dies on the Jewish sixth day of the week. Jesus is dead on the Jewish seventh day of the week. Jesus is dead, and then resurrects, on the Jewish first day of the week.
    Again, wrong. Did you even read the verse?

    After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
    After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
    Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
    And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

    There you go, 4 different translations. They went to the tomb at dawn. In case you don't know what dawn means, let me help you:

    Definition of dawn
    (Entry 1 of 2)

    intransitive verb

    1 : to begin to grow light as the sun rises waited for the day to dawn

    dawn

    noun
    Definition of dawn (Entry 2 of 2)

    1 : the first appearance of light in the morning followed by sunrise danced till dawn at the crack of dawn Almost before the first faint sign of dawn appeared she arose again … —Thomas Hardy
    Dawn means that the sun is rising. The sun is that big, bright thing you see during the day. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to the tomb when that big, giant ball of plasma started to poke out above the horizon. Jesus rose not long before this, somewhere between midnight and the sunrise.
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    If one defined the new day beginning at sunrise one could claim that he was dead for only two days, but that definition is neither a modern Christian one of a traditional Jewish defintion.

    And it does not take too much research to find that very early Christians kept the Jewish Sabbath, but by the third century AD they were observing Sunday as the sabbath.
     
  12. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Yeah, and I don't think it was the Roman definition of it either.

    Yes, as most of the first Christians were still Jews themselves.
    I wouldn't even say that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. Sure, it's the day that we chill out and worship, but I wouldn't say that makes Sunday our Sabbath.
     
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  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Great, now you disagree with the standard interpretation. Your interpretations are getting mixed up, in other words, it's obscure.

    1 Corinthians 16:2
    Sabatou Sabato.
     
    #53 Desert Snake, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    By the jewish shabbath which you are going by, youre halfway into a full day. Twelve hours. You are saying, they change meaning, mid sentence, while still using the sabbath notation...anyways, this is ridiculous. You still aren't saying what 'day', you are even going by, there. Solar? That isn't the jewish calendar; lunar? That isn't the 'early morning hours of a new day.'
     
    #54 Desert Snake, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  15. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    1: There's no such thing as a "lunar day", except for the length of time it takes for the moon to make one rotation.
    2: I have said it about three different times before, and I will say it again. It doesn't matter whether you're using the Roman or Jewish reckonings of when the day starts, Jesus was dead for 3 days using inclusive reckoning. The Roman day began at midnight, and the Jewish day began at sunset. You can draw a chart for yourself if you want and map out when Jesus died. He was dead for three days, I don't care if you're using the Jewish or the Roman calendars.

    To use an example more familiar to us, If I start shelling a city in the afternoon on Monday, and I keep shelling it on Tuesday, and I continue shelling it into early Wednesday, you would say that Wednesday is the third day that I have been shelling the city. In the same way, Jesus died on Friday, He was dead on Saturday, and early on Sunday (the third day), He rose from the dead. Ergo, He was dead for three days.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'm doing just from. When we rest from the week, it's our Sabbath rest. I can understand them translating it that way, even if it's less exact.

    Did you have a new question about 1 Corinthians 16:2 (sabbaton)? We've pretty much covered everything. No Sunday Sabbath.
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Luke 6:1
    And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
    [KJV]


    The second Sabbath, after the first.
     
    #57 Desert Snake, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    That probably refers to the second Sabbath of the month. Not to two Sabbaths in the same week. Most translations simply say "a Sabbath" or words to that effect. You are relying on the rather outdated King James Version:

    Luke 6:1 One Sabbath Jesus was passing through the grainfields, and His disciples began to pick the heads of grain, rub them in their hands, and eat them.
     
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Hebrews 4:3-5

    Note that the Jews, ie [non Christians, in these verses,
    Don't have a Sabbath.
    If 'sabbath' simply means the 'jewish seventh day', usual jewish calendar, then how can the jews not have a sabbath?

    Obviously, the day that the non'Christians are observing, is literally, not considered an actual Sabbath.


    Hebrews 4:8
     
    #59 Desert Snake, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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