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Featured The stars shall fall from heaven...

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    In the Gospel of Matthew the final recorded sermon spoken by Jesus one verse reads;

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
    Matthew 24:29

    Assuming Jesus actually spoke these words, what did He mean and why?
     
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  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    My understanding would be to look at it as a metaphor. Firstly I would connect the spiritual revelation of Jesus the Christ to a material meaning, to see if we can then understand what it may be saying. Then once we do that we may grasp it in the spiritual sense.

    So we could see Jesus Christ as the Sun. We could see the moon of that Sun as the Word of God that continues to shine after the Sun of Christ set and then the stars would be those that became the teacher (ministers, priests etc) of that Word to guide the people through the Night.

    So when the sun is darkened, it would indicate we are no longer seeing the Sun of Christ, and
    when the moon is not giving the light, it would indicate that the Word is no longer giving the meaning intended, and finally
    when the stars fall from Heaven, it also means that they no longer teach what the Word intended, they have fallen from the heaven of Christs Word and become worldly bound.

    In that way we can see this event happens before the dawn of every new Day at the start of a new cycle of light and life.

    Regards Tony
     
    #2 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Essential context for Matthew 24:29 is Jesus explaining the signs of His Coming.

    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    Matthew 24:3

    It is useful to consider the extremely unlikely scenario of stars literally falling to the earth, as if a celestial body such as a star that was even remotely close to the sun in size, the earth would be obliterated and all life on earth would instantly cease.

    The verse I believe should be considered symbolically and there are examples of symbolic use of the sun in biblical scriptures that liken it to Divine Revelation. Examples include;

    And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
    Revelation 21:23

    The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the Great and Glorious Day of the Lord.

    Acts of the Apostles 2:20

    No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the LORD for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory.
    Isaiah 60:19

    And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
    Revelation 22:5
     
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  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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  5. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    He meant literally what He said. These are events heralding the end of time.
     
  6. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Probably meant he thought the stars would fall.

    People didnt have a clue about astronomy in those days.

    "Falling stars" were, after all, thought to be stars, for the
    longest time.

    The vice of overthinking things is common in religions.
     
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  7. amatuerscholar

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    It's quite plausible that Jesus did say this. However, it is unlikely that he meant this literally as he is using Hebrew scripture here, which was meant to be metaphorical to begin with. He really is looking at Ezekiel 32:7, as well as a few other verses such as Amos 8:9 and Joel 2:10-11. He's just using the standard metaphors in order to speak of a cataclysmic event at the end of times. And this isn't the same type of end times that many associate with the book of Revelations, but the Jewish eschatological idea which centers around justice.

    The vice of overthinking things is just common in people. But here, it's not an overthinking, but being unfamiliar with the background literature, which is understandable if one doesn't actively also study the Hebrew Scriptures.

    People may not have had a full understanding of astronomy in those days, but they also weren't fully ignorant.
     
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  8. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Not fully, but they sure did not know much.
    And people did, many probably still do thing
    shooting stars are stars falling.

    I so often see the thing about "context" that I
    tend to think of it as a way of saying
    "I am unassailably correct". Maybe you dont mean
    it so, but, you know what I mean anyway.
     
  9. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    The immediate context:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

    An image of the events:

    Link to enlarged Image Here.

    [​IMG]

    It is a reference to the days of the dark ages and the persecution thereof, "after the tribulation of those days" (referred to in Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luke 21:24.)

    And as such, ties directly to the events of the 6th Seal, currently under way:

    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

    We are right now, between those two verses.


    The other events in it, already took place (history).

    Earthquake – Lisbon, AD November 1, 1755 (to be followed up, there was an earthquake at Jesus death, and there was an earthquake at His resurrection (both of which involved Angels, including Gabriel), interesting is the fact that there are endtime events which parallel those in the events of Jesus in AD 31, sandwiched between two earthquakes, like a special resurrection, etc, see details in the Desire of Ages and Great Controversy)

    Dark Day (Sun/Moon) – AD May 19, 1780

    Stars – AD November 13, 1833

    Heaven Departed as a scroll (not Yet, still Future) (like as a veil)​

    Details:

    [1,290, AD 508 unto AD 1798]

    Daniel 12:11 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and ninety days."​

    [1,335, AD 508 unto AD 1843/44]

    Daniel 12:12 KJB - "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
    Revelation 14:13 KJB - "... Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth ..."​

    [70 Weeks, 62 + 7 + 1 [1/2 + 1/2], 457 BC unto AD 27 [Baptism], unto AD 31 [Cross], unto AD 34 [Stephen], then the remaining 1810, unto AD 1843/44]

    Daniel 9:24-27 KJB - Whole ...​

    [5 Anti-typical feast Months, AD 31-100, unto AD 1833/34, Day of Trumpets, from Pentecost; Leviticus 23; Woe 1, Woe 2 and Woe 3, encompassing the whole 'Exodus', 'Wilderness' unto 'Canaan']

    Revelation 9:5 KJB - "... five months ..."
    Revelation 9:6 KJB - "... those days ..."
    Revelation 9:10 KJB - "... five months ..."​

    [1,260, 42 months, time, times and 1/2 time; AD 538 unto AD 1798]

    Daniel 7:25 KJB - "... a time and times and the dividing of time." ["wear out the saints"]
    Daniel 12:7 KJB - "... a time, times, and a half ..." ["scatter the power of the holy people"]
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... the tribulation of those days ..." [reference to Daniel]
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "...that tribulation ..." [reference to Daniel]
    Luke 21:24 KJB - "... the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
    Revelation 6:11 KJB - "... killed as they were ..." [two groups, past and future, see Rev. 20:4 KJB]
    Revelation 11:2 KJB - "... given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
    Revelation 11:3 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threescore days ..."
    Revelation 12:6 KJB - "... a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
    Revelation 12:14 KJB - "... a time, and times, and a half a time ..." ["persecuted", see vs 13]
    Revelation 13:5 KJB - " ... forty and two months." ["power" was given to "him" [1st [sea] Beast, Rev. 13]]​

    [Great Lisbon Earthquake, AD 1755, November 1]


    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... a great earthquake ..."​

    [Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19 - Sun]

    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... the sun ... shall be dark ..."
    Joel 2:31 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... shall the sun be darkened ..."
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "... the sun shall be darkened ..."
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "And there shall be signs in the sun ..."
    Acts 2:20 KJB - "The sun shall be turned into darkness ..."
    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair ..."​

    [Great Dark Day, AD 1780, May 19 - Moon]

    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the moon shall be dark ..."
    Joel 2:31 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before the great and terrible day of the LORD come]
    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light ..."
    Mark 13:24 KJB - "... and the moon shall not give her light,"
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the moon ..."
    Acts 2:20 KJB - "... and the moon into blood ..." [before that great and notable day of the Lord come]]
    Revelation 6:12 KJB - "... and the moon became as blood;"​

    [Reign of Terror, French Revolution, AD 1793 unto AD 1797/8; 'spiritually Egypt and Sodom']

    Revelation 11:9 KJB - "... three days and an half ..."
    Revelation 11:11 KJB - "... after three days and a half ..."​

    [Great Leonid Meteor Shower, AD 1833, November 13]

    Matthew 24:29 KJB - "... and the stars shall fall from heaven ..."
    Mark 13:25 KJB - "And the stars of heaven shall fall ..."
    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and in the stars ..."
    Revelation 6:13 KJB - "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth ..."​

    [Day of Atonement, AD 1844, October 22; 2,300 which began in 457 BC, Ezra 7, Daniel 9, etc ending in AD 1843/44]

    Daniel 8:14 KJB - "... Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
    Revelation 9:15 KJB - "... prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year ..." [Rev. 14:6-7; Leviticus 23:26-32; 1 Kings 8:2; Daniel 8:13,14,26, etc]
    Revelation 10:6 KJB - "... that there should be time no longer ..." [no more prophetic time as a test]

    Luke 21:25 KJB - "... and upon earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;"

    Isaiah 13:7 KJB - "Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:"
    Isaiah 13:8 KJB - "And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrow shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth ..."
    Luke 21:26 KJB - "Men's heart's failing them from fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth ..."

    Isaiah 13:10 KJB - "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."
    Joel 2:10 KJB - "... and the stars shall withdraw their shining:"
    Joel 3:15 KJB - "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."​

    [The Close of probation for mankind in receiving and assimilating the Everlasting Gospel]


    Daniel 12:1 KJB -"And at that time shall Michael stand up ... there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time ..."
    Luke 13:25 KJB - "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without ..."
    Revelation 10:7 KJB - "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished ..."
    Revelation 22:11 KJB - "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."​

    [7 Last plagues, Wrath of God poured out]

    Job 14:13 KJB - "... thy wrath ..."
    Revelation 11:18 KJB - "... and thy wrath is come ..." [Revelation 16:2-17 KJB]​

    [Final Events]

    Jeremiah 25:30 KJB - "... The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth."
    Joel 2:11 KJB - "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army ..."
    Joel 3:16 KJB - "The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, utter his voice from Jerusalem ..." [New Jerusalem in Heaven]

    Joel 3:16 KJB - "... and the heavens and the earth shall shake ..."
    Mark 13:25 KJB - "... and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
    Luke 21:26 KJB - "... for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."
    Hebrews 12:26 KJB - "... I shake not the earth only, but also heaven:"

    1 Kings 18:44 KJB - "... ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand ..."
    Matthew 24:30 KJB - "And then shall the appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ..."

    Revelation 6:14 KJB - "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together ..."

    Revelation 16:18 KJB - "... a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

    Revelation 6:14 KJB - "... and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
    Revelation 16:20 KJB - "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

    Matthew 24:30 KJB - "... and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
    Mark 13:26 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
    Luke 21:27 KJB - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and glory."
    Revelation 6:15 KJB - "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"​
     
  10. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Webster's 1828 dictionary:

    Under

    Meteor: "... We call by the same name those fire balls which are usually denominated falling stars ..." - Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - meteor

    Falling-Star: "FALL'ING-STAR, noun A luminous meteor, suddenly appearing and darting through the air." - Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Falling-star

    Thus those texts which speak of those bodies that leave the heaven, shining bright, like a great red dragon, having a tail, and falling to the earth, digging their own pit, from which arises smoke.

    Nothing was like the unprecedented (recorded at least) event of November 13, 1833, and there are many historical citations on it, even mentioned in the Native American year charts of events across the country.

    These may be helpful to those studying this topic. Enjoy.
    The magazine focuses on the last events to come, not so much the past events.
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Why wouldn't we take this literally: that Jesus (or whoever wrote this passage) really was trying to invoke the cosmology described in Genesis, where the sky is a solid dome and stars are suspended from it, and really was trying to say that literal stars were going to literally fall to Earth?
     
  12. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Why should we assume He was speaking literally and not metaphorically?

    It would be far more likely that He is speaking about the end of one dispensation and the beginning of a new one. Matthew 24:29-41 is often considered to be a reference to the Return of Christ and the conditions and events that would accompany that Return. If the earth were no longer present and time ceased, how could it any of it happen?
     
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  13. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Where does Matthew 24 state that "the earth were no longer present" and that "time ceased"?
     
  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I agree with your general approach of making references to Hebrew Scriptures that clearly use similar metaphors. Jesus throughout His Ministry uses allegorical stories and draws on Jewish Scriptures to convey spiritual truths. The themes of justice and judgment are a strong part of the Olivet discourse, for examples Matthew 25:31-46. References to the flood in Noah’s day (Matthew 24:37-39) and the destruction of the Jewish temple (Matthew 25:1-2) are images that convey a sense of one dispensation ending and another beginning. One consideration would be the imagery around the exile or diaspora of the Jewish people from their homeland and the symbolism of Jerusalem and the temple (eg Daniel 9:24-27).
     
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  15. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    The context of Matthew 24, is the actual second coming of Jesus in literal glory with real angels:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

    The entire context is literal, natural, not symbolic.

    Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 25 is the switch to symbolic.

    Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.​
     
  16. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    I had to check to see if this was true, as it would affect how one reads that passage. Here's what I found:

    Meteor showers
    The Roman historian Cassius Dio referred to “comet stars” occurring in August 30BC. These are mentioned as among the portents witnessed after the death of the Egyptian queen Cleopatra. Experts are not entirely sure what it means when Dio uses the plural term “comet stars”, but some have connected this recorded event to the annual Perseid meteor shower.

    .......

    Though the myths and legends may make one think that ancient civilisations had little scientific understanding of what meteors, comets and asteroids could be, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. The early astronomers of the Near East, those who created the Babylonian and Egyptian calendars, and astronomical data were – by far – the most advanced in antiquity. And a recent study of ancient cuneiform texts has proven that the Babylonian ability to track comets, planetary movements and sky events as far back as the first millennium BC involved a much more complex geometry than had been previously believed.

    How ancient cultures explained comets and meteors
    That said however, perhaps he meant to say he'll return during a meteor shower? Or maybe he'll arrive on a comet? After all, they say a comet appeared at his birth. It didn't say anything about falling stars then though. ;)
     
  17. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I have understood it means objects from heaven. But maybe it could mean also stars like Kobe Bryant.
     
  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    To say they did understand them is what could hardly be further
    from true.

    They did not have the least clue of what they were, what made of,
    how far away, why they "move" as the do. Kind of important details.

    They had some pretty accurate observations and predictions.
    Geometry is not science.

    it is said that "wise men" of the day tried to follow a star. :D

    This song shows a lot more understanding
    than they had.

    I live on a big blue ball
    I never do dream I may fall
    But even the day that I do
    I jump off and smile back at you
    I don't even know where we are
    But they tell us we're circling a star
    Well I'll take their word I don't know
    But I'm dizzy so maybe that's so
     
  19. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Hell, we don't know what a lot of things we can see are made of. That doesn't mean we don't know anything about them. Same with them back then. You can know there's a moon, even if you think it's made of cheese. What they could know, they attempted to work with. I don't think they actually believed a falling star, was one of the fixed points of light in the night sky, come dislodged from however they were strung up there, and fall to earth. Unless they could identify a missing star, or something like that.

    I don't know that they mistook a shooting flash of light in the sky, as an actual star. Maybe they did. I'm sure some peasant farmer might imagine something like that, but I don't think that the brighter minds of the day assumed things the same way. Do you have any citations? I looked for some, and came up empty. Maybe you'll have better luck with your search than I did. If you find it let me know. Knowledge is power.

    They also had the sciences. "Geometry began to see elements of formal mathematical science emerging in Greek mathematics as early as the 6th century BC" (Geometry - Wikipedia)

    Also, this is worth a read: Ancient Greek Science

    The achievements of ancient Greek science were amongst the finest in antiquity. Building on Egyptian and Babylonian knowledge, figures such as Thales of Miletus, Pythagoras, and Aristotle developed ideas in mathematics, astronomy, and logic that would influence Western thought, science, and philosophy for centuries to come. Aristotle was the first philosopher who developed a systematic study of logic, an early form of evolution was taught by such figures of Greek philosophy as Anaximander and Empedocles, and Pythagoras' mathematical theorem is still used today.

    ........

    According to Greek tradition, the process of replacing the notion of supernatural explanation with the concept of a universe that is governed by laws of nature begins in Ionia. Thales of Miletus, c. 600 BCE first developed the idea that the world can be explained without resorting to supernatural explanations. It is likely that the astronomical knowledge that Thales got from Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy allowed him to predict a solar eclipse which took place on 28 May 585 BCE.

    Anaximander, another Ionian, argued that since human infants are helpless at birth, if the first human had somehow appeared on earth as an infant, it would not have survived. Anaximander reasoned that people must, therefore, have evolved from other animals whose young are hardier. It was Empedocles who first taught an early form of evolution and survival of the fittest. He believed that originally “countless tribes of mortal creatures were scattered abroad endowed with all manner of forms, a wonder to behold”, but in the end, only certain forms were able to survive.
    Not too shabby for a bunch of folks who couldn't tell the difference between a shooting star and an actual one. :)
     
  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Not bad, if you only look at things they more or less got right.
    Anyway, enuf.
     
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