The spirit problem

[Ulver]

I'd say, yes, there are souls. I think it "starts" when God knows the egg will be born. For me and for anybody else who has ever been born, that was at fertilisation. But He probably doesn't go giving souls to every fertilised egg, because some of them don't make it very far.

So if a fetus/baby is three months old in the womb and is aborted and since God knew this would happen (because God apparent knows at any moment everything that will happen in the future) then would there of been no death of a being with a soul? Therefore not making it a wrong action?

Now if a woman got in a car accident and survived, but her six month old fetus/baby in her womb was killed, then was no soul containing being killed?

Is there a difference in these two situations?

 

[gnomon]

I'm still confused.

Our soul (would that be the personal "I") enters into the body sometime at or immediately following birth. Some say that the soul existed before birth, all consciousness prior to birth is removed at the point of birth and the ongoing development of the human will determine where the soul continues upon the death of the body.

What's the point of living?

 

[Master Vigil]

What's the point of living?

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't anything but life. But I also don't believe that all consciousness is deleted upon birth, or at death.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm still confused.

Our soul (would that be the personal "I") enters into the body sometime at or immediately following birth. Some say that the soul existed before birth, all consciousness prior to birth is removed at the point of birth and the ongoing development of the human will determine where the soul continues upon the death of the body.

What's the point of living?

From my perspective, the point of living is to (1)gain a physical body, which will be restored to its perfect form at the resurrection and (2)to be tested, i.e. to learn the difference between good and evil, and to develop faith in God.

 

[gnomon]

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't anything but life. But I also don't believe that all consciousness is deleted upon birth, or at death.

I just accidentally deleted my previous response to this post!

Let's see if I can remember.

The concept of spirit is something that is eternal and whole. This physical reality is a temporary existence of a part of the spirit and not the existence of a unique, individual entity (my soul). It's more of a part of the whole having a unique experience? Am I making any sense.:areyoucra

Maybe I should just exit this thread and peruse some writings on the Tao. It's been ten years since I gave my copy to a friend.

 

[Master Vigil]

I just accidentally deleted my previous response to this post!

I hate when that happens!

The concept of spirit is something that is eternal and whole. This physical reality is a temporary existence of a part of the spirit and not the existence of a unique, individual entity (my soul). It's more of a part of the whole having a unique experience? Am I making any sense.:areyoucra

I believe the concept of spirit is something that is eternal, and ever changing. The physical reality is a temporary link within the constant chain of change. While it is a part of everything, it can be seen as individual only in the effect that it is the energy making your body alive. However, the physical boundaries are only that, physical. The energetic portion of your body (your spirit) has no physical boundaries, and is energetically connected to every last thing in the universe. So yes, it is part of the whole having a unique experience correct.

Maybe I should just exit this thread and persue some writings on the Tao. It's been ten years since I gave my copy to a friend.

Persue yes, but you don't have to exit this thread.

 

[flupke]

Through meditation, and meditative exercises. And of course, being "VIgil." (hence my username).

"in tune" to me, means that I am able to mold my energy vibrations to that of the energy in nature. It is an understanding, and a oneness.

Where's the vibration in the energy of an ATP molecule ? That would be new science...

 

[flupke]

(what do cats look at when they watch nothing moving around on the wall?)

the wall...

I also have experienced pre-cognition, a feeling of knowing absolute about the near future. What is that? Do our brainwaves detect something outside of time?

Most likely what you experienced is a shortcut: information reaches your memory first before it reaches your consciousness. After reaching the consciousness, you find it already in the memory and have the 'feeling' that you already knew about it. The fact that this only happens for the near future, i.e. short-term memory, never long-term, suggests that it is in fact this type of shortcut.

 

[flupke]

You could probably say that. We are, according to LDS doctrine, born without sin. On the other hand, we are born with a propensity to sin.

I don't know about you, but I fully expect to have retained some of what I learn throughout my life. You're assuming that I believe that a disembodied spirit (one that leaves the body at death) loses its memory. I've said nothing of the sort.

Everything is stored in your brain; remove the brain and there is no memory. Partially disrupt the brain (e.g. Alzheimer, Creutzfeldt-Jacob..) and you erase your memory while living.
Therefore: the big questions:

1. If you're assuming that the spirit still has the memory anyway, they why does it not 'know' while you're still alive but amnesiac ?

2. If the spirit can store memories, then what's the point of a physical memory (as stored through the action of your hippocampus) ?

3. supposing you're saying that the physical memory is used to 'link' to the spirit memory: how would such a link be formed; and why not use the direct link from eyes to spirit ?

These things don't make sense; maybe there is no spirit ?

 

[flupke]

Once again, where one's soul is, is a non-issue. It doesn't have to be anywhere in the physical universal. I don't "know" my soul, persay; similar to how language, however accurate, represents a concept. The soul requires that same blind acceptance of existence and our participatory status.

I suppose, we aren't totally disconnected from our souls, as far as to affect it by what we do. Our choices, our actions, events all affect one's spiritual self, no matter how incomprehensive that change may be.

Then how does your soul influence your body ? Your mind (i.e. the emergent property of your brain) does pretty well at making intelligent decisions. If the soul cannot influence the body, then it doesn't seem fair that the soul would be held accountable for anything the body did...

 

[flupke]

Well. I believe that the soul does not start from anywhere, it awakens... In a sense, I remember when I was a baby, I used to have awakenings, and then it was like I was sleeping, whereas when I asked my mom, I apparently was not sleeping at that time. Its like I was on "automatic". For example I remember myself on a hill, surrounded by tall grass, and somewhere down there was a river. And that image is all that I remember. My mom tells me thou that they were looking for me and found me amongst many ants, and that I was looking at them ants, not afraid in any sense. Well I have no recollection of that whatsoever...so what I believe is that the fact that I do not remember myself in this situation does not mean that "I do not remember" that, but rather means that I did not have control over-myself at that time, sort of sleeping soul but awaken body. So in terms of soul, I believe if you were to graph soul as a function over time, the function would be exponential. This function would represent the percent of control the soul has over the body as y-axis over time as x-axis. and you would have the function be an exponential starting from infinity approaching 0, growing to 100% and never approaching it, then decreasing once we get close to death, exponentially decreasing and once again approaching close to 0, but never touching it. And that is my interpretation of soul.

Basically, you're saying that your soul always existed (in small size), which means that God cannot have created it. I don't know your religion, but if you believe in god the creator, that seems at odds.

 

[Master Vigil]

Where's the vibration in the energy of an ATP molecule ? That would be new science...

I am not sure what an ATP molecule is, but I would be excited to learn more.

 

[may]

i find it interesting reading the various thoughts on spirits and souls ,but i do not think the bible teaches us that we have an immortal soul , i think the teaching that we possess an immortal soul is a belief that comes from Babylonia

the teaching of the immortality of the soul goes back to ancient Babylon



Confronted with such conflicting ideas and beliefs, we must ask: Do we really have an immortal soul? If the soul is actually not immortal, then how could such a false teaching become an integral part of so many of today’s religions?

Clearly, religions around the world have developed a bewildering array of beliefs in the Hereafter, based on the teaching that the soul is immortal. And such beliefs have affected, yes, even dominated and enslaved billions of people. i find it interesting that this belief stems from babylonish teaching , because the bible warns his people to get out of( Babylon the great) in the book of revelation, and i believe that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion ............ revelation 18;4

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I am not sure what an ATP molecule is, but I would be excited to learn more.

It's an Adenosine Triphosphate molecule, pretty much the body's building block of physical energy. Here's a link I found helpful.

Yay! I actually remembered something from A&P from my massage therapy courses!

 

[Ulver]

i find it interesting reading the various thoughts on spirits and souls ,but i do not think the bible teaches us that we have an immortal soul , i think the teaching that we possess an immortal soul is a belief that comes from Babylonia

the teaching of the immortality of the soul goes back to ancient Babylon



Confronted with such conflicting ideas and beliefs, we must ask: Do we really have an immortal soul? If the soul is actually not immortal, then how could such a false teaching become an integral part of so many of today’s religions?

Clearly, religions around the world have developed a bewildering array of beliefs in the Hereafter, based on the teaching that the soul is immortal. And such beliefs have affected, yes, even dominated and enslaved billions of people. i find it interesting that this belief stems from babylonish teaching , because the bible warns his people to get out of( Babylon the great) in the book of revelation, and i believe that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion ............ revelation 18;4

That is an interesting view on it. I'd ask is anything of us immortal then? are "parts" of the Soul immortal (conservation of energy for example)?

Also could you better define how the book of Revelation says people should stir away from Babylon, which is a "world empire of false religion"? You mean the religions that have developed with conceptiosn of Immortal souls?

 

[flupke]

I am not sure what an ATP molecule is, but I would be excited to learn more.

ATP = adenosine triphosphate. It is basically a base that makes up DNA, linked to three phosphate groups. The phosphate bonds are very energetic: breaking them releases a lot of energy, which drives the synthesis reactions in every cell, muscle contraction, etc...

But basically the idea is the same regardless of what molecule/energy you're looking at: there simply are no 'vibrations' in the energy. So I still don't understand how you can be 'in tune' with them. (There are vibrations in the bonds though; but there are so many different types with different frequencies you couldn't be 'in tune' with all of them).

Maybe what you mean is that, by knowing that we're made up of molecules with energetic bonds, and that ultimately we will cease to be but energy remains (in another form), you can get a relaxed and care-free mind. Having the analogy with energy is some way of finding 'peace' so to speak; in a way that any kind of meditation can bring relaxation. Do you agree with this stance ? If so, your definition of a 'soul' or 'spirit' is very different from most believers on this forum, and it's more a symbol of what you're made from, not an actual existing entity.

 

[Master Vigil]

ATP = adenosine triphosphate. It is basically a base that makes up DNA, linked to three phosphate groups. The phosphate bonds are very energetic: breaking them releases a lot of energy, which drives the synthesis reactions in every cell, muscle contraction, etc...

Ah, COOL!

But basically the idea is the same regardless of what molecule/energy you're looking at: there simply are no 'vibrations' in the energy. So I still don't understand how you can be 'in tune' with them. (There are vibrations in the bonds though; but there are so many different types with different frequencies you couldn't be 'in tune' with all of them).

Why doesn't it have vibrations? Perhaps I am in tune with all of them at once, and thus it seems (to my imperfect mind) to be one thing. Like a school of fish looks like one living thing from far away. Does that make sense?

Maybe what you mean is that, by knowing that we're made up of molecules with energetic bonds, and that ultimately we will cease to be but energy remains (in another form), you can get a relaxed and care-free mind. Having the analogy with energy is some way of finding 'peace' so to speak; in a way that any kind of meditation can bring relaxation. Do you agree with this stance ? If so, your definition of a 'soul' or 'spirit' is very different from most believers on this forum, and it's more a symbol of what you're made from, not an actual existing entity.

Sort of. I am not sure if you mean, we will cease to be but energy remains after death, and that idea gives me peace... or if you mean, we will cease to be but energy remains now, and by use of meditation we can understand this and that gives us peace? But you are right about something, my definition of spirit is DEFINITELY different than most believers on this forum.

 

[may]

That is an interesting view on it. I'd ask is anything of us immortal then? are "parts" of the Soul immortal (conservation of energy for example)?

Also could you better define how the book of Revelation says people should stir away from Babylon, which is a "world empire of false religion"? You mean the religions that have developed with conceptiosn of Immortal souls?

When we accept the Bible and what God says in it, then the truth becomes simple. Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into his human form. Consequently when the sinner Adam died, the human soul died. It ceased to exist.

Adam was not immortal and indestructible

The combining of the human body with the breath of life by God’s power produces the human soul. Man thus becomes a living soul. But if the spirit or breath of life is separated from the human body, the living soul ceases to be. The soul ceases to live; it dies. the bible does not teach that we have a part of us that is immortal .only Gods power can make us live, and the bible tells me that God is dynamic energy

teachings about immortality of the human soul are false, just because the religions of the world take on this belief does not make it correct.

most religions do at least agree on one point. They believe that something inside a person—be it called soul, spirit, or ghost—is immortal and continues living after the death of the body. Nearly all of Christendom’s hundreds of religions and sects advocate belief in the immortality of the soul. This belief is also an official doctrine in Judaism. It is the very foundation of Hinduism’s teaching of reincarnation. Muslims believe that the soul lives on after the body dies. The Australian Aborigine, the African animist, the Shintoist, even the Buddhist, all teach variations on this same theme .but the bible does not teach it

(Genesis 2:7) note that the Bible does not say that man received a soul, but that man came to be a living soul

Christians must get away from the idea which originated with the Greek philosopher Plato that man consists of two parts: body and soul . . . according to the Bible man’s existence ends with death. There is not ‘something’ like a soul that lives on

the majority of clergy have not held firmly to the Bible as God’s Word, though they may give the impression that the Bible is what they teach. Instead, they have exchanged it for human philosophy—their own and that of the ancient Greeks

In his book Death Shall Have No Dominion, Douglas T. Holden writes: "Christian theology has become so fused with Greek philosophy that it has reared individuals who are a mixture of nine parts Greek thought to one part Christian thought." This is well illustrated with regard to the generally held belief in an immortal soul. For example, Plato, a Greek philosopher of the fourth century B.C.E., wrote: "The soul is immortal and imperishable, and our souls will truly exist in another world!

not everyone has swallowed Plato’s pagan philosophy, for they knew very well that Jesus had taught: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28, 29) The very expression "memorial tombs" implies that those dead persons are retained in the "memory" of God. He will restore them to life. There is the true hope for the dead that will be realized when this earth is under the full control of God’s Kingdom government by Christ.—Matthew 6:9, 10; Revelation 21:1-4. no wonder that God is going to get rid of the world empire of false religion .because when it is out the way ,the truth will be taught all over the world .the book of revelation is just what it says it is it is a revealing or uncovering and it certainly is doing that in these last days

 

[michel]

Many religions (all of them ?) believe in spirits or souls.

Some questions:

Does a fertilized egg cell have a soul ?
Do sperms and egg cells already have pre-souls that merge upon conception ?
Does the soul only 'hop in' at birth ? If yes, that means we can kill fetuses without scrutiny.

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

Needless to say I don't accept souls or spirits; but I'm curious to see how believers deal with this issue (other than "god will figure it out").

I think I have already posted further back, but I thought I would 'have another go', because I was thinking about your question maybe in more depth than before.

My wife lost a pregnacy in the very early stages in between the births of our two sons. She has always advocated it was a little girl, and, as she is quite knowledgable in such matters, tells me she thinks it was because she was unable to carry girls.

Of course, I haven't a clue. I once went to a healer for particularly bad back trouble; I had tried virtually everything, and finally decided to go to a faith healer. He knew nothing about me, save my name. When I went in, and he was healingme, he asked ghow many children I had, and I replied "Two sons"; he said "Would it surprise you to know you had a little girl as well ?"

Well, a bit of a shock, especially as he said "She is standing next to you, with a bunch of flowers 'for Daddy' and she is asking me to ask you to please stop drinking, becuse she is worried about you".

I swear I hadn't had a drop that day !!!

Well, I am an alcoholic (I call myself one, to be on the safe side - I do have a problem, but it is only that once I start, I binge drink).

O.K so here was our daughter who my wife lost within - she thinks - the first two to three weeks. How did she know ? Women's intuition; she knew she was pregnant, just as she knew when she lost the fetus.

So, my Daughter has a soul; I talk to her often.

The point is back to your question "when does the soul enter the body ?". Without knowing much about biology, I would say "as soon as the cells in the ovum first divided"

If I take a fertilized egg cell out of a womb and let it divide a couple of times, mix up the blastula (lump of cells capable of forming a human being) and re-implant the 64 cells in different wombs, did I just create 63 extra souls ? Am I God ?

Am I God ?

No, because although you can mess around with the blastula ( a new word for me), you weren't able to create an egg in the first place, neither were you able to create the sperm. If, one day, you have the sufficient knowledge and ability to duplicate the two, then we would have to revaluate..but I am not holding my breath!

 

[Surya Deva]

Has anybody here ever tried Astral projection or had an OOBE(out of body experience). The greatest proofs are always experential. If you have experienced astral projection or OOBE's, you will need no further proofs that you have a soul.