1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The spirit problem

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by flupke, Jan 15, 2006.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    I'd say, yes, there are souls. I think it "starts" when God knows the egg will be born. For me and for anybody else who has ever been born, that was at fertilisation. But He probably doesn't go giving souls to every fertilised egg, because some of them don't make it very far.
     
  2. flupke

    flupke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    170
    Ratings:
    +8
    I'm trying to show that there are inconsistencies, and that there is an issue. Saying "It doesn't matter" is turning your head away from an important issue. For example, if you think it could happen 'at birth', then you're assuming that a 8-month old baby that just came out of the womb is more predisposed to having a soul/spirit than a 8.5-month old unborn baby. What would be the rationale for that ? Why would physical location (inside or outside of the womb) have anything to do with the soul ? If you say it might come in at a particular time before, then I can formulate similar problems.
    And, where does the soul come from ? You're stating that the soul already existed.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,693
    Ratings:
    +5,554
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    My own belief is that a "living soul" is a physical body infused with spirit. I believe -- and I recognize that most Christians would disagree with me on this point -- that God created our spirits long before we were ever born (as in billions of years). I believe that we existed in spirit form (i.e. as conscious entities without a physical body) prior to our mortal lives and lived at that time in God's presence. I'm not even sure what my Church's official position is (if we have one) as to when the spirit enters into an embryo or fetus. But since I see the spirit part of me as being eternal in nature, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me whether it's at conception or birth.
     
  4. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    14,071
    Ratings:
    +2,169
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    To be honest, I think our souls have always been...and always will be...we just have this opportunity at life to make the choice as to where our souls will go after this...
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,693
    Ratings:
    +5,554
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Very scary, dawny... Sounds very LDS to me. ;)
     
  6. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    14,071
    Ratings:
    +2,169
    Religion:
    Non-Denominational Christian
    LOL!:D Well, you know...I've always said, I'm not bound to any particular religion...

    ...and I think it was the kind LDS on this site who kindly and gently pointed out to me that really aren't all that different...all God's children in Christ.
     
  7. flupke

    flupke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    170
    Ratings:
    +8
    If they were conscious before entering the body, then why is the baby barely conscious ? It doesn't know right from wrong; it takes a while into childhood (some even in adulthood or never at all) to learn about morality.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,693
    Ratings:
    +5,554
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    We believe that our memory of our premortal life is erased at birth. We also believe that knowledge of right and wrong come only as a child matures and does not exist at birth. But, to me, the spirit is more than knowledge or consciousness. It's the essence of who we are.
     
  9. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    Spirit? Yes, I believe so. All energy is spirit.

    Absolutely. I call that force Tao. Some may call it god. The word isn't what's important.

    That type and all types yes. And yes I'm a scientis, but I also believe in our ability to "spiritually" become in tuned with this energy, and understand it. So I am still a spiritualist, but I call myself a Vigil. And I attribute this method to Pulsus, Chi Gong, and any other "chi" work. So I am a Taoist.
     
  10. flupke

    flupke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    170
    Ratings:
    +8
    You must mean more than just erasing of memory; the 'morality standards' are then also erased in your reasoning. And since we're all losing memory as we age, this would mean the spirit, after leaving the body upon death, has no memory again. Must be pretty surprising to find yourself in hell all of sudden without knowing why !
    (although I remember you maybe don't believe in hell ?)
     
  11. flupke

    flupke Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    170
    Ratings:
    +8
    How do "I", who is all chemical energy, come "in tune" with that energy, if I already am the energy itself ? What does "in tune" mean ?
     
  12. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    Through meditation, and meditative exercises. And of course, being "VIgil." (hence my username).

    "in tune" to me, means that I am able to mold my energy vibrations to that of the energy in nature. It is an understanding, and a oneness.
     
  13. Toad

    Toad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    52
    Ratings:
    +7
    I've had ghostly unexplainable encounters, so I tend to believe at least something is left behind as a remnant. Humans and cats.
    (what do cats look at when they watch nothing moving around on the wall?)

    I also think it possible that this energy grows as the person does, when self awareness is realised?
    Or were these things that I thought I saw or heard, but didn't, yet did.

    I also have experienced pre-cognition, a feeling of knowing absolute about the near future. What is that? Do our brainwaves detect something outside of time?

    I've also saw an Unidentified.F.O

    So, If you've experienced these types of things, but believe they are things of the Universe, not necessarily a god, you become an agnostic, like me.

    We are all products of the Universe, I also tend to think that the Universe always existed, if the big bang is true, is it only one of many as far as I'm concerned, there is no limit to space, it's possible.
     
  14. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,110
    Ratings:
    +1,669
    I would say that the soul needs to keep an appointment and fuses at the time of birth.

    The nine months development process is the human becoming and is nature at work.
    No personality or individualism can be discerned.
    To use an illustration, a performer does not go on stage before an empty audience or while the scenery is being set up.





    The following question was submitted by cannie1

    Q: Dear GOD

    Abortion. What do you think?



    A: I K(NOW) you cannot discontinue the existence of a soul through the act of abortion. The human shell may BE destroyed, but the entity that was planned to occupy it is not. Any entities that choose to incarnate into the physical realm do not incarnate into a body that is planned for termination. REMEMBER that ALL matter can BE modified, created, and destroyed, but the soul remains forever, if that is what it desires.



    HELLO ITÂ’S ME: An Interview With GOD

    Chapter: Dear GOD

    Pg: 227

     
  15. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    No, not all do.
    I don't know.
    I would think not, but again, I don't know.
    I don't know.
    No, it doesn't.
     
  16. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    10,912
    Ratings:
    +954
    Religion:
    Narrow-minded Biblist
    There is also some scripture that might suggest that there is some divinity in all of us.

    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms 82:6 KJV

    I've never really done a complete study of this for myself but others use this to make those suggestion and right now I know of nothing to contridict that thought.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,693
    Ratings:
    +5,554
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    You could probably say that. We are, according to LDS doctrine, born without sin. On the other hand, we are born with a propensity to sin.

    I don't know about you, but I fully expect to have retained some of what I learn throughout my life. You're assuming that I believe that a disembodied spirit (one that leaves the body at death) loses its memory. I've said nothing of the sort.
     
  18. Avi

    Avi Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    92
    Ratings:
    +7
    Once again, where one's soul is, is a non-issue. It doesn't have to be anywhere in the physical universal. I don't "know" my soul, persay; similar to how language, however accurate, represents a concept. The soul requires that same blind acceptance of existence and our participatory status.

    I suppose, we aren't totally disconnected from our souls, as far as to affect it by what we do. Our choices, our actions, events all affect one's spiritual self, no matter how incomprehensive that change may be.
     
  19. draqon_of_white_seas

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +2
    Well. I believe that the soul does not start from anywhere, it awakens... In a sense, I remember when I was a baby, I used to have awakenings, and then it was like I was sleeping, whereas when I asked my mom, I apparently was not sleeping at that time. Its like I was on "automatic". For example I remember myself on a hill, surrounded by tall grass, and somewhere down there was a river. And that image is all that I remember. My mom tells me thou that they were looking for me and found me amongst many ants, and that I was looking at them ants, not afraid in any sense. Well I have no recollection of that whatsoever...so what I believe is that the fact that I do not remember myself in this situation does not mean that "I do not remember" that, but rather means that I did not have control over-myself at that time, sort of sleeping soul but awaken body. So in terms of soul, I believe if you were to graph soul as a function over time, the function would be exponential. This function would represent the percent of control the soul has over the body as y-axis over time as x-axis. and you would have the function be an exponential starting from infinity approaching 0, growing to 100% and never approaching it, then decreasing once we get close to death, exponentially decreasing and once again approaching close to 0, but never touching it. And that is my interpretation of soul.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. draqon_of_white_seas

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    7
    Ratings:
    +2
    the vertex of that function of soul would be the time of love has the greatest sense.
     
Loading...