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The South African elephant in the room ...

Discussion in 'Middle Eastern Politics' started by Jayhawker Soule, May 16, 2021.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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  2. Labourwave

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    To clarify: are you interested in primarily discussing whether or not apartheid states can be democracies or if Israel is an apartheid state?
     
  3. Labourwave

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    To present those articles as 'the voices of South Africans and Arabs' instead of some South African and Arab voices is super misleading.
    The African National Congress openly supports the BDS movement, perhaps they would be more indicative of the 'South African' voice than the stuff you found on stopbds.org

    The parallels between Israel and the South African situation is not a new comparison, while Mandela never used the word apartheid to refer to Israel, he compared the situations extensively and spoke about how the apartheid regime worked closely with Israel. Some quotes from him:
    'We identify with the PLO because just like ourselves they are fighting for the right of self-determination'
    'Our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

    Here are articles by two of Mandela's grandchildren using the term Apartheid to describe Israel:
    Zwelivelile Mandela says Israeli apartheid is the worst form of apartheid ever witnessed.
    My grandfather Nelson Mandela fought apartheid. I see parallels with Israel
     
    #4 Labourwave, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  4. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Right, like FOX commentators. :) They seem to know everything about everything everywhere in the world. And are happy to correct our ignorance.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Thank you.

    I found this relevant - particularly the sections:
    1. Legal Prohibition of Apartheid,
    2. Customary Law, and
    3. Treaty Law.
    Was this in reference to Comments by South Africans?
     
  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    We can call it 'apartheid' if we want to, but what is currently happening is ethnic cleansing. It hasn't reached the level of actual death camps, yet, but it's not far from it. Palestinians are being killed, driven from their homes, and everything they own stolen or destroyed. And because the U.S. government has been locked in a massive bribery ring with the Israeli government for many decades, we will do nothing, and say nothing, about any of it.
     
  7. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    To my eyes, the current happenings to indeed resemble the Yugoslavian conflict more closely than the apartheid regime.
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    worst. ethnic cleansing. ever
    Arab Population Statistics Debunk Lie of ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ of Palestinians
     
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  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    OK, so the various voices I presented are only some of them. Of course, those "some of them" do have the experience and education to speak to the issue. But hey, if others use the term and see parallels, then it must be true.
     
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  11. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    "Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research shows that since 2000 there has been a 10% increase in the proportion of the Arab population in Jerusalem"

    Guess who runs this "Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research" ... I'm sure all those Jews aren't at all biased, though! :rolleyes:

    So there has been an "Arab population increase" IN JERUSALEM? And that's over 20 years! And an increase of what? Domestic servants? Certainly not of property owners, or business operators. And what does any of this have to do with what's going on all across the rest of the country?
     
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  12. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Considering that during the same time the population of Gaza has increased of about 30% yeah it does look like there is some ethnic cleansing going on else the rate of growth would be much larger. The birthrates in Palestinian territories are the 13th largest in the world. There lies, damn lies and statistics.
     
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  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    um...
    "Surprisingly, despite the Palestinian propaganda pushed by PA leaders and their supporters that Israel is chasing Arabs out of the city, the Palestinian Authority’s own office of statistics confirms the Israeli numbers.

    The Palestine Central Bureau of Statics in Ramallah (PCBS) reported that in 2010 there were 385,669 Arabs in Jerusalem, and the latest PCBS report said the estimated population in Jerusalem for December, 2020 is 466,750 – amounting to a whopping 21% overall increase in the past decade."

    The PA agrees. Population is INCREASING. So you invent "domestic servants" because the earlier claim fails. Got it.
     
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  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So it is ethnic cleansing because one group isn't increasing as much as another group? That's an interesting and new definition of ethnic cleansing you have there.
     
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  15. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    No, it's ethnic cleansing when a group is systematically expulsed from a territory on the basis of their ethnic group and the proof that such a thing is happening in Jerusalem is the stunted growth of its Arab population (amongst other things). That's how a slow and methodical ethnic cleansing looks like.
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, an ethnic cleansing would show a reduction in population over time. Since what you have here is an increase, you don't have any ethnic cleansing. The UNCE definition requires a reduction in population.
     
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  17. Labourwave

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    Congratulations, you picked the definition you needed to deny ethnic cleansing. :rolleyes:
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I just used the one that the UN uses. Which definition do you prefer?
     
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  19. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    There is not such mention in the link you provided. In fact the actions of Israel in East Jerusalem do fall under the two definitions mentioned in the link your provided. Israel is using force and intimidation to remove a group of person from an area. There is no mention that there must be a net reduction on population for a policy to be a form of ethnic cleansing especially when the avowed goal of the policies in place is to expulse the members of an ethnic group to take control of their territory. Did you read your own link? Confinement to a ghetto without even reducing the population is also a form of ethnic cleansing btw.
     
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