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The Song of Solomon, Chapter 5, Verse 16

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Cordoba, Apr 19, 2005.

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  1. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Greetings to All:

    I have just this moment found out that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

    "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

    "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

    In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim.


    In the English translation they have translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present !!
     
    Godobeyer likes this.
  2. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Can someone familiar with the Old Testament in Hebrew confirm (or refute) this claim?
     
  3. anders

    anders New Member

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    The Hebrew word is, according to all sources, derived from the root mHd. The non-occurring verb maHmâd and its derivatives refer to precious things etc.

    The name of the Prophet (pbuh) comes from the root Hmd. Hamida means to praise etc.

    The different vowels clearly show that the Hebrew maHamadîm and the Arabic muHammad are different words.

    And even if they had the same origin and the word in the Bible were a name, the Bible could have referred to any person of that name in those days. I suppose you don't mean that there are any credible predictions in the Bible!?
     
  4. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Thanks anders for your answer.

    The hebrew word mahmad according to the site (Jews for Allah, which has just come back on-line after a long absence) means "the praised one", which is exactly the same meaning of Muhammad in Arabic: "the praised one".

    "In reading the English translation of Songs 5:16 it finishes the description by saying "He is altogether lovely". The words "altogether lovely" was translated from mahmad "

    http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/the-Jewish-Bible/Muhammad-in-Songs.htm

    Other references to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in the Jewish Bible are on this page:

    http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/
     
  5. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot New Member

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    Um, "im" is added to make a (masculine) word plural, not for respect. I'll go look up the specific verse, give me a moment.
     
  6. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot New Member

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    Does Muhammad's name have the "ch" (sort of like Bach, not like church) sound in it? (I think that sound exists in Arabic, yes?)
     
  7. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Jews living in Madinah in the early 7th. century recognized Prophet Muhamma, peace be upon him, as soon as he arrived from Makkah.

    His description was so clear to them in Jewish scriptures, they were certain it was him, God's last Prophet and Messenger whom they were waiting for, a descendent of Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him.

    The only unexpected surprise for them was that he was the descendent of Prophet Abraham from his son Ishmael, not Isaac.
     
  8. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot New Member

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    Well, I happen to disagree, but then, that's why I'm a Jew and not a Muslim...mind answering my question about the name? I can't find any good info on the net.

    Why were they waiting for another prophet, do you know? Usually it's the Messiah Jews are waiting for.
     
  9. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    That sound "ch" exists in Arabic, but not in the name of the prophet, peace be upon him.

    There was a PBS documentary a couple of years ago titled "Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet" http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/

    Did you watch it?
     
  10. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot New Member

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    No, I haven't seen that. Interesting, is it?

    The Hebrew word is machmad, with the "ch." It's entirely different than it would be with just the "h" (it's two different letters). So I have to say it seems unlikely it's referring to him.
     
  11. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Yes, very interesting. It's produced by Michael Wolfe, who'se father is Jewish and mother Christian.

    << I happen to disagree, but then, that's why I'm a Jew and not a Muslim >>

    Sure, of course I understand that. No problem.

    "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (109:6)

    All the best.
     
  12. anders

    anders New Member

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    In the first place, as SOOF pointed out, the -îm is a plural ending. I've checked three grammars of Bible Hebrew, and, like I expected, there is no mentioning of its use as a honorific. Almost all words ending in -îm can be explained as plurals, among the exceptions is chayyîm "life". I think that it is impossible to use it on a name.

    With one transcription used in Europe, the singular is maHmâd, which makes it even more obvious that all vowels are different betwen the Bible word and the Arabic name. The H (which should have been an h with an underdot) is the &#1495;, pronounced like the Arabic &#1582; , not the &#1581; in Muhammad.

    And I don't understand, Cordoba, why you want to read the name of the Prophet (pbuh) in a piece of acient Jewish erotic poetry.
     
  13. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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  14. anders

    anders New Member

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    I haven't the time nor inclination do delve into all of that site. Just one point in passing: I certainly agree that Isaiah 42 can't possibly point to Yeshua Josephson, but using more or less the same arguments, it's ridiculous to think that the Prophet (pbuh) is referred to.

    There's so much in Islam, when taught and lived according to the Qur'an, that is true, useful and positive that there is no need to distort scriptures, one's own or those from other faiths.
     
  15. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    The distortion is not in Islam, anders, as we have only 1 version of the Qur'an, but in both the OT & the NT. Despite the deletions made in both books over the period of many centuries, some verses remain which do mention the coming of Muhammad, as in the list of references above.

    All of God's prophets, from Noah to Muhammad peace be upon them all came with the same message of Monotheism: for people to believe in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

    Jews knew from their scriptures that God had sent Jesus peace be upon him to guide them, but most Jews refused to follow him at the time. Later, God sent Muhammad, His last prophet, to guide the People of the Book (i.e. both Jews and Christians). Some were convinced, others were not.

    At the end of the day, each believer is free to his or her own beliefs.

    Muslims can only inform them of what was revealed in The Qur'an, and each person is free to follow what they find more convincing.

    All the best.
     
  16. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Well-Known Member

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    I believe there is a baseball player named Jesus. Has our glorious saviour returned?:rolleyes:
     
  17. Alii

    Alii New Member

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    In Hebrew 'im' is the plural of respect.

    You see if you go to the first verse of the bible Book of genesis chapter 1 verse 1 it says

    'In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth'

    the word 'god' in that verse in hebrew is written as 'ellohim'.

    In hebrew 'ell' stands for god
    In hebrew 'ella' stands for god
    'ellohim' is the plural form to say with all respect and reverence.
    Making it the plural of respect. In all eastern language there are two types of plurals even in arabic there is plural of respect and plural of numbers. Like we find in the quranic verse 'it is for us to send down the revelation and it is for us to proetct it'

    The word 'us' is the plural of respect just like in Hebrew 'im' is added for the plural of respect.
    So the verse in the song of Solomon 5:16 is refering to Muhammed(pbuh) but with the plural of respect. The english translators changed the word 'Muhammed' to the 'lovely one'. Even in the prophecy of jesus he is referred to as the admirable one/the praiseworthy one/the lovely one. So the translators who changed still dug a hole for themselves.

    hopefully this cleared the misconception brothers and May allah guide the righteous.

    Jazakhallahukhair.
     
  18. jeff_sparta

    jeff_sparta New Member

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    Thank you Alii for your wonderfull and very logicol answer !.

    Anders, did the cat catch your toung? or u have just ran out of "smart" words to deny this with?

    For everyone who whants to learn something good about Islam and about were the diffrenses between Islam and judeism and cristianity comes from please check out "The divine book" you can thind them on facebook.com among other places.

    Peace to all !!
     
  19. danielramp

    danielramp New Member

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    'IM' is a plural of respect. If u seen the first chapter of bible verse 1.. God created the heavens and the earth. In hebrew, EL stands for god, ELLAH stands god and ELOHIM, to say with all respect when saying God.
     
    Zardoz likes this.
  20. Rakhel

    Rakhel Honey badger.

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    Seeing as how this a DIR part of the forum and not a debate part of the forum, I can only say what is believed within Judaism.
    SOOF and anders are correct. The Chet(ch) and the Hey(h) are two different letters and make two different sounds. Anders is also correct in that the -im, in most cases, changes the word to a plural word.
    And to add my own input, Song of Solomon is a poetic love story. It has nothing to do with any prophesy or curse or vow.
     
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