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The Son of Man and the Saints of Daniel 7

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yeah, I started a whole thread about "New Light" a while back if you want to check it out:

Christian denominations vs JW "New Light", Unity and Truth
https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...tions-vs-jw-new-light-unity-and-truth.220881/

Interesting thread you started.
Out of the Org only 3 years ago. Have you brought many beliefs with you and how hard was it to start again after leaving?

Your third sentence is one of the main problems with the "New Light" doctrine. The believers think that they have truth, but do not acknowledge the obvious contradiction with that belief and updating their beliefs. Another interesting point is that if their views are subject to change, then why take any of their current interpretations seriously? On top of that, they often say that they just teach obvious truths from the Bible, as if they rely on the Bible for their faith when in fact they rely on the interpretations of the Bible as put forth by men, otherwise the organisation changing their "understanding" wouldn't result in the followers suddenly adapting their "beliefs".

I came out of a Catholic background and notice similarities between the JWs and Catholics, but as a teenager and disillusioned with Catholicism and searching, I ended up being confused by JW teachings and needing to work it all out. I have ended up with a bit of knowledge about the JWs but of course it does get out of date after a while with changes to the teachings, some of which are necessary because the times have moved on. (eg the teachings about what a "generation" is and the whole changing face of the prophecy doctrines which have to adapt to the unrelenting movement of time, which eventually makes statements of 30 years ago wrong.)
It is interesting to speak with JWs as in theory they believe the Bible but in practice it seems that it is the interpretations of the Watchtower that they believe and do not want to be disloyal to that organisation even if it means denying the Bible. I usually end up with the conversations coming to an abrupt halt and me being told basically that they don't want to waste time with me when their time could be spent more fruitfully elsewhere.
This is happening at the moment in this thread with Deeje
Question to Christians - 144,000 Start and Finish

This topic is a deep rabbit hole though. I was even discouraged from reading the books of the founder for some reason. Probably because he calculated the 1914 prophecy based off the measurements of the pyramids rather than taking it from the scriptures. Then the organisation retrofitted the Bibles text to suit that prophecy and in the process had to reject history in order to get it to match.

It is one thing to be ignorant of these things as a JW but it is another thing to know about them as an elder maybe, and to be so loyal to the Org that you think you are being loyal to Jehovah by suppressing the truth from others and not even allowing it to register in you own thinking about the Org. I guess it is like the slow progress someone makes in an army when they eventually can torture people without conscience and thinking they are doing the right thing because it is for the cause.
I have always preferred to argue with JWs using just the scriptures but am coming around to the view that it is first necessary to make them doubt the Org by showing how dishonest it is etc.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Why do you think that the truth about who Baha'u'llah claims to be hinges upon whether the prophecies on the Tanakh are authentic? I guess you are questioning their accuracy? That is a valid point, but if the Tanakh is not accurate that brings down the entire Jewish religion like a house of cards, and all the prophecies that Christians claim are about Jesus at His first coming also come toppling down.

The claims of Baha'u'llah are not contingent upon whether the Bible is wholly authentic or accurate, the claims are contingent upon the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, who Baha'u'llah was as a person, the history of the Baha'i Faith, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah. I would say the same is true for Islam, it does not rely upon the Bible for validation because it is a Revelation from God through Muhammad that stands on its own merit, even though it was preceded by what happened in the past as represented in the Tanakh and the New Testament.

Thats why I believe Bahaullah got it wrong sis. Actually I believe that the followers of Bahaullah got it wrong. They too some of the prophecies Christians claim is about Jesus and folded it to fit Bahaullah. The problem is, when you question it, even the most humble person (as most Bahais are) loses his/her temper.

No. Its not the same with Islam. Thats not a valid argument. I see this all the time. Any argument the Bahais use, they try to align it with another religions argument in order to validate theirs. But that shows deep ignorance of the Quran, and nothing more.

Forget Islam and stand on your own. Again, if the Bible is flawed, what is the mechanism used to validate only the cherry picked verses that suits your purpose? It has to be a mechanism, not just "because I say so".
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I understand what I said about Muhammad happened, no doubts. The learned of the age of a Messenger always ridicule God's Word in such a manner, as it is new and revolutionary.

So I ask you a question, what persecution did Muhammad face, can you rightly name everything?

My comments are based on knowing what Baha'u'llah has said Muhammad faced and what he faced, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also faced.

If you watch the movie, I think that is where I may have seen what happened to Muhammad was the same as the Bab.

If you have not seen the movie, this is what most likely also happened to Muhammad.

Extract from Bab's trial;

At last the stillness which brooded over them was broken by the Nizámu’l-‘Ulama’. “Whom do you claim to be,” he asked the Báb, “and what is the message which you have brought?” “I am,” thrice exclaimed the Báb, “I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose
mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.” No one ventured to reply except Mullá Muhammad-i-Mamaqání, a leader of the Shaykhí community who had been himself a disciple of Siyyid Kázim. It was he on whose unfaithfulness and insincerity the siyyid had tearfully remarked, and the perversity of whose nature he had deplored. Shaykh Hasan-i-Zunúzí, who had heard Siyyid Kázim make these criticisms, recounted to me the following: “I was greatly surprised at the tone of his reference to Mullá Muhammad, and was curious to know what his future behaviour would be so as to merit such expressions of pity and condemnation from his master. Not until I discovered his attitude that day towards the Báb did I realise the extent of his arrogance and blindness. I was standing together with other people outside the hall, and was able to follow the conversation of those who were within. Mullá Muhammad was seated on the left hand of the Valí-‘Ahd. The Báb was occupying a seat between them. Immediately after He had declared Himself to be the promised One, a feeling of awe seized those who were present. They had dropped their heads in silent confusion. The pallor of their faces betrayed the agitation of their hearts. Mullá Muhammad, that one-eyed and white-bearded renegade, insolently reprimanded Him, saying: ‘You wretched and immature lad of Shíráz! You have already convulsed and
subverted ‘Iráq; do you now wish to arouse a like turmoil in Ádhirbayján?’ ‘Your Honour,’ replied the Báb, ‘I have not come hither of My own accord. I have been summoned to this place.’ ‘Hold your peace,’ furiously retorted Mullá Muhammad, ‘you perverse and contemptible follower of Satan!’ ‘Your Honour,’ the Báb again answered, ‘I maintain what I have already declared.’
6 The power to produce such evidence has been given to Me by God. Within the space of two days and two nights, I declare Myself able to reveal verses of such number as will equal the whole of the Qur’án.’ ‘Describe orally, if you speak the truth,’ the Nizámu’l-‘Ulama’ requested, ‘the proceedings of this gathering in language that will resemble the phraseology of the verses of the Qur’án so that the Valí-‘Ahd and the assembled divines may bear witness to the truth of your claim.’ The Báb readily acceded to his wish. No sooner had He uttered the words, ‘In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, praise be to Him who has created the heaven and the earth,’ than Mullá Muhammad-i-Mamaqání interrupted and called His attention to all infraction of the rules of grammar. ‘This self-appointed Qá’im of ours,’ he cried in haughty scorn, ‘has at the very start of his address betrayed his ignorance of the most rudimentary rules of grammar!’ ‘The Qur’án itself,’ pleaded the Báb, ‘does in no wise accord with the rules and conventions current amongst men. The Word of God can never be subject to the limitations
of His creatures. Nay, the rules and canons which men have adopted have been deduced from the text of the Word of God and are based upon it. These men have, in the very texts of that holy Book, discovered no less than three hundred instances of grammatical error, such as the one you now criticise. Inasmuch as it was the Word of God, they had no other alternative except to resign themselves to His will.’
“He then repeated the same-words He had uttered, to which Mullá Muhammad raised again the same objection. Shortly after, another person ventured to put this question to the Báb: ‘To which tense does the word Ishtartanna belong?’ In answer to him, the Báb quoted this verse of the Qur’án: ‘Far be the glory of thy Lord, the Lord of all greatness, from what they impute to Him, and peace be upon His Apostles! And praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds.’ Immediately after, He arose and left the gathering.”

An extract what the Bab said at His trial about the Quran.

".... Nay, the rules and canons which men have adopted have been deduced from the text of the Word of God and are based upon it. These men have, in the very texts of that holy Book, discovered no less than three hundred instances of grammatical error, such as the one you now criticise. Inasmuch as it was the Word of God, they had no other alternative except to resign themselves to His will.’..... "

Regards Tony

Tony. This movie we watched when we were children.

Sorry, I cannot understand whats the relevance.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tony. This movie we watched when we were children.

Sorry, I cannot understand whats the relevance.

This has gone on for so long, what was the point we were talking about? ;)

The original thought was maybe to point out the Mesengers are persecuted and charged with not knowing what they are talking about. I may add my own flare to the words, that may be the issue? I guess I could follow the trail back to see what the point was, but I see, no point now. :D

All the best firedragon.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
This has gone on for so long, what was the point we were talking about? ;)

The original thought was maybe to point out the Mesengers are persecuted and charged with not knowing what they are talking about. I may add my own flare to the words, that may be the issue? I guess I could follow the trail back to see what the point was, but I see, no point now. :D

All the best firedragon.

Regards Tony

Persecution does not translate to "they accused him of making kindergarten grammatical mistakes". I am making that same statement for the second time.

If you made a mistake Tony, you can say you did. If not, maybe you had a valid point so please give me the historical sources so that I can be educated as well. What ever it is, just say it. Its better.

Cheers.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Persecution does not translate to "they accused him of making kindergarten grammatical mistakes". I am making that same statement for the second time.

If you made a mistake Tony, you can say you did. If not, maybe you had a valid point so please give me the historical sources so that I can be educated as well. What ever it is, just say it. Its better.

Cheers.

I posted a source to those thoughts above, but maybe you did not see what I saw.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I posted a source to those thoughts above, but maybe you did not see what I saw.

Regards Tony

Maybe I missed a post. I can’t find it. Apologies.

Can you tell me concisely where it’s recorded that Muhammed was accused of making kindergarten grammatical errors? This is not to prove a point but just for my knowledge.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I understand what I said about Muhammad happened, no doubts. The learned of the age of a Messenger always ridicule God's Word in such a manner, as it is new and revolutionary.

So I ask you a question, what persecution did Muhammad face, can you rightly name everything?

My comments are based on knowing what Baha'u'llah has said Muhammad faced and what he faced, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also faced.

If you watch the movie, I think that is where I may have seen what happened to Muhammad was the same as the Bab.

If you have not seen the movie, this is what most likely also happened to Muhammad.

Extract from Bab's trial;

At last the stillness which brooded over them was broken by the Nizámu’l-‘Ulama’. “Whom do you claim to be,” he asked the Báb, “and what is the message which you have brought?” “I am,” thrice exclaimed the Báb, “I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose
mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.” No one ventured to reply except Mullá Muhammad-i-Mamaqání, a leader of the Shaykhí community who had been himself a disciple of Siyyid Kázim. It was he on whose unfaithfulness and insincerity the siyyid had tearfully remarked, and the perversity of whose nature he had deplored. Shaykh Hasan-i-Zunúzí, who had heard Siyyid Kázim make these criticisms, recounted to me the following: “I was greatly surprised at the tone of his reference to Mullá Muhammad, and was curious to know what his future behaviour would be so as to merit such expressions of pity and condemnation from his master. Not until I discovered his attitude that day towards the Báb did I realise the extent of his arrogance and blindness. I was standing together with other people outside the hall, and was able to follow the conversation of those who were within. Mullá Muhammad was seated on the left hand of the Valí-‘Ahd. The Báb was occupying a seat between them. Immediately after He had declared Himself to be the promised One, a feeling of awe seized those who were present. They had dropped their heads in silent confusion. The pallor of their faces betrayed the agitation of their hearts. Mullá Muhammad, that one-eyed and white-bearded renegade, insolently reprimanded Him, saying: ‘You wretched and immature lad of Shíráz! You have already convulsed and
subverted ‘Iráq; do you now wish to arouse a like turmoil in Ádhirbayján?’ ‘Your Honour,’ replied the Báb, ‘I have not come hither of My own accord. I have been summoned to this place.’ ‘Hold your peace,’ furiously retorted Mullá Muhammad, ‘you perverse and contemptible follower of Satan!’ ‘Your Honour,’ the Báb again answered, ‘I maintain what I have already declared.’
6 The power to produce such evidence has been given to Me by God. Within the space of two days and two nights, I declare Myself able to reveal verses of such number as will equal the whole of the Qur’án.’ ‘Describe orally, if you speak the truth,’ the Nizámu’l-‘Ulama’ requested, ‘the proceedings of this gathering in language that will resemble the phraseology of the verses of the Qur’án so that the Valí-‘Ahd and the assembled divines may bear witness to the truth of your claim.’ The Báb readily acceded to his wish. No sooner had He uttered the words, ‘In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, praise be to Him who has created the heaven and the earth,’ than Mullá Muhammad-i-Mamaqání interrupted and called His attention to all infraction of the rules of grammar. ‘This self-appointed Qá’im of ours,’ he cried in haughty scorn, ‘has at the very start of his address betrayed his ignorance of the most rudimentary rules of grammar!’ ‘The Qur’án itself,’ pleaded the Báb, ‘does in no wise accord with the rules and conventions current amongst men. The Word of God can never be subject to the limitations
of His creatures. Nay, the rules and canons which men have adopted have been deduced from the text of the Word of God and are based upon it. These men have, in the very texts of that holy Book, discovered no less than three hundred instances of grammatical error, such as the one you now criticise. Inasmuch as it was the Word of God, they had no other alternative except to resign themselves to His will.’
“He then repeated the same-words He had uttered, to which Mullá Muhammad raised again the same objection. Shortly after, another person ventured to put this question to the Báb: ‘To which tense does the word Ishtartanna belong?’ In answer to him, the Báb quoted this verse of the Qur’án: ‘Far be the glory of thy Lord, the Lord of all greatness, from what they impute to Him, and peace be upon His Apostles! And praise be to God, the Lord of the worlds.’ Immediately after, He arose and left the gathering.”

An extract what the Bab said at His trial about the Quran.

".... Nay, the rules and canons which men have adopted have been deduced from the text of the Word of God and are based upon it. These men have, in the very texts of that holy Book, discovered no less than three hundred instances of grammatical error, such as the one you now criticise. Inasmuch as it was the Word of God, they had no other alternative except to resign themselves to His will.’..... "

Regards Tony

I saw this post. But I can’t see anyone accusing him of making grammatical errors.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
We know that Daniel 8 gives us the exact time Messiah would arrive on earth and tells us that he would die, and that God had thusly decided to have Jerusalem and its temple destroyed (Daniel 9:25-26).

But when would he rule as king? The prophecy in Daniel 4 about 7 times gives us the time period when the gentile times would end, and God's kingdom in heaven would begin to rule.
....

I cannot see how the prophecy in Daniel 4 about 7 times gives us the time period when the gentile times would end and God's Kingdom in heaven would begin to rule.
The prophecy concerns Nebuchadnezzar only and that is what Daniel told him and there is no starting time for the prophecy if it meant to lead us to 1914.
Dan 4:24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king: 25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Daniel speaks to the King and says ""and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.""
This happened to the King Nebuchadnezzar and at the end of 7 years he know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men and gives it to whomsoever he will.
It surely would take a bit of desperation to see this as pointing to the time when God's Kingdom would begin to rule.
It would surely take more than desperation to use this as almost the basis for a whole religion.
No, I err, the Watchtower also uses the iffy interpretation of the 144,000 in Revelation as part of the basis for the Jehovah's Witnesses religion.
 
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