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"The solution to bad religion is good religion, not no religion."

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?

Ive actually never been in an environment where even the word atheist sneaked itself into conversations. So, I dont see the benefit or consequence of theism vs atheism because here we just dont have that; its all abrahamic believers with buddhist spashed in and there Ive practiced with. All of them dont live around here or out in the middle of no where and temples further than that.

If anything, that quote reflects the small percentage of people on internet forums. I havent been to USSR and other "atheists" countries.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Personally I think it's very individual. Some people find religion helpful, some are "spiritual but not religious" and some don't have any such beliefs.

From another angle, I find most people don't really 100% believe their religion or believe in God. They basically go to services etc because of how they were brought up or to fulfill society's expectations in various nations. The also follow the rituals and ceremonies superficially without thinking about the deeper meaning.

Some believe deeply and try to work on themselves to align their thoughts words and deeds with their beliefs. Some of those take a positive path, good religion, of compassion, brotherhood/sisterhood, service etc. Others, what I would call "bad religion" bash people over the head with their beliefs either verbally or literally.

So I agree with your basic thesis but with the thought that religion is not for everyone.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?

Very interesting, even though I am a theist I have never been antagonistic to atheists nor atheism. Most of the hostility toward atheism that I experience is from Christians and Muslims. Jews, except possibly very strict Jews are generally tolerant of of atheism, and atheist and strongly agnostic Jews are common, who consider their cultural identity more than a religious identity.

It is interesting you refer to 'bad religion' and 'good religion.' I need to give that more thought.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
What does good religion look like? Hopefully something universal with self responsible attitude that does not exclude or condemn non believers.

I have seen bad religion and everybody keeps pointing out the errors and evils of those.

Good religion is my main purpose of being on rf. I aim to find out if they do exist.

If a person seeks eternal meaning or temporal value to life, it makes a big difference in motivation for following one.

To me good religion is a quest to find out if eternal meaning is a valid pursuit. Otherwise if life is temporal, then perhaps a religion that focuses on the best way to live a temporal life is the way to go.

I think most people live a temporal life. This is their heaven, and they want to make the most of it.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?
What a thoughtful marvelous person you are!
You have suggested the right solution.
People have bad experience with say Pauline Christianity, they generalize it for the truthful revealed religion and become anti-religions or even strong anti-religions altogether.

Regards
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Ive actually never been in an environment where even the word atheist sneaked itself into conversations. So, I dont see the benefit or consequence of theism vs atheism because here we just dont have that; its all abrahamic believers with buddhist spashed in and there Ive practiced with. All of them dont live around here or out in the middle of no where and temples further than that.

If anything, that quote reflects the small percentage of people on internet forums. I havent been to USSR and other "atheists" countries.

Come to Australia for a visit! Or go to Sweden or somewhere.
They're not atheist countries, by any stretch, but you'll meet heaps of them (us). Some are even washed. ;)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?

It's an interesting quote, and there is plenty of truth in it. But he'd have to define what makes a 'good' religion before I could truly comment. Good science promotes enquiry, changes in the face of evidence, and can be generally proven to have advanced mankind in a very concrete manner, but even then there are serious moral minefields we have to overlay on a pure quest for advancement.

Long story short, I'd pull back from the theism/atheism dichotomy, and say instead that there are certain types of behavior and thought which are really 'the cure' (if less simple than that sounds). Whether the inspiration for those sort of behaviours are driven by religious or philosophical thought, they are not likely to be driven by 'atheism', since atheism...in and of itself...isn't really capable of driving anything.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
The surgery is now on hold.

Fair enough. I never thought you needed it, truth be told. I learnt to love my imperfections many years ago.
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Although in my case that's because they're small and cute and call me 'Dad'. I don't have any personal imperfections, naturally.
Ahem.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What does good religion look like? It looks like the one Adam and Eve had in the garden of Eden.....:)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

This is one of the greatest, most comprehensive and sound quotes I've seen in philosophy. This sums up so much I and others have tried to say in a simple, short paragraph. He is right. Sure religions has caused bad, it has caused good as well. Heck, the State Atheism of the USSR unfortunately stuck the atheists in a position most of us are too familiar with: people doing something terrible in the name of our philosophies. And likewise atheism has done good, I've seen it with my own eyes, we can show people who have benefitted from atheism.

It's also become impossible to discuss religion online without the behavior mentioned by the rabbi. "...criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity...". You see this absolutely everywhere, from here to Reddit, YouTube to Facebook, Kindle to Vastne and Noble. I've often argued in favor of the term "new atheism", and it's specifically because "Atheism deserves better than the new atheists ..."

Finally, I love the quote about science. Far too often do people hold positions they disagree with to different standards than their own. This is the best possible metaphor For why we need "good religion" rather than "none".

Thoughts?
Someone who makes his living off religion thinks that religion is good? Shocker.

For your next number, I assume that you'll be getting statements from used car salespeople about whether auto dependency is good or bad.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion without understanding it, quoting texts without contexts, taking exceptions as the rule, confusing folk belief with reflective theology, abusing, mocking, ridiculing, caricaturing, and demonizing religious faith and holding it responsible for the great crimes against humanity. Religion has done harm; I acknowledge that. But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science."

- Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

All I see here is yet another theist telling us that atheists don't understand religion, but he understands atheists, and characterized us as espousing derogatory attitudes about the religious even as he berates atheists.

This is what religion does to too many people, and why I don't recognize any religion as good religion.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Eh, no religion would be better.

Why?

Someone who makes his living off religion thinks that religion is good? Shocker.

For your next number, I assume that you'll be getting statements from used car salespeople about whether auto dependency is good or bad.

I assume you apply the same logic to atheist writers like Dawkins and Harris right?

All I see here is yet another theist telling us that atheists don't understand religion, but he understands atheists, and characterized us as espousing derogatory attitudes about the religious even as he berates atheists.

This is what religion does to too many people, and why I don't recognize any religion as good religion.

Well the speaker actually defends actual atheists and acknowledges their existence. He is berating new atheism and even points out the negative impact it has on actual atheism.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
New Atheists - can't wait for the Modern and Post-Modern varieties - how will they be demonised? Religions feeling threatened somewhat? When it might just be declining belief from other causes than any efforts by New Atheists.

But the cure for bad religion is good religion, not no religion, just as the cure for bad science is good science, not the abandonment of science.

As if these are equivalent. :rolleyes: And who gets to choose the 'good' religion or what is a 'good' religion?
 
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