The Social Use of Concealment

[Ellen Brown]

I just read an article: Olivia Arthur: The secret lives of Saudi women

and agree with those who use the Niqab in countries where the practice is acceptable or even demanded.

I've worn the Niqab here in America and it elicits either confusion or open hostility. I've come to an appreciation of it, even in America, especially when used by women college students in my area who are here from Saudi Arabia or other conservative places. Those who I have talked to do not feel forced to use it because to them it gives them privacy from prying eyes, at least when they are trying to adapt from hedonistic American culture. If someone is unkind to them, it is nothing more than what they expected.

These days I feel that the idea that these women are forced to wear the Niqab is a blatant western fantasy.

 

[Enoch07]

A western fantasy or a mid-eastern nightmare?

Iran’s morality police assault a woman for not wearing her hijab properly

You dont have to wear it. But if you don't there might be consequences!! We all know how much the left love their consequences!

 

[Ellen Brown]

A western fantasy or a mid-eastern nightmare?

Iran’s morality police assault a woman for not wearing her hijab properly

You dont have to wear it. But if you don't there might be consequences!! We all know how much the left love their consequences!

One must do what they can to survive.

 

[Enoch07]

A Muslim woman can dress however she wants to express her faith. I personally think they look nice. It reminds me of women's fashion in the 50's in the U.S. like this:

So long as it's of her own free will to express her faith/personality, I got no problems with it. I'm just not big on authority enforcing it and leaving no choice. I'm against an authority banning it as well.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Up until the mid 20th century women from places like Iran didn't typically or often wear them, and there were massive protests when such laws were introduced. Back then, their women were pretty much indistinguishable in dress from women in other parts of the world. And women today often refuse to various degrees and items (such as gloves) knowing they might face consequences.

 

[Ellen Brown]

A Muslim woman can dress however she wants to express her faith. I personally think they look nice. It reminds me of women's fashion in the 50's in the U.S. like this:
View attachment 28256

So long as it's of her own free will to express her faith/personality, I got no problems with it. I'm just not big on authority enforcing it and leaving no choice. I'm against an authority banning it as well.

Not trying to justify it in any way. Simply trying to understand her feelings.

 

[SomeRandom]

As long as it's choice. Imposed by the government is..........problematic.

 

[Dan Mellis]

I just read an article: Olivia Arthur: The secret lives of Saudi women

and agree with those who use the Niqab in countries where the practice is acceptable or even demanded.

I've worn the Niqab here in America and it elicits either confusion or open hostility. I've come to an appreciation of it, even in America, especially when used by women college students in my area who are here from Saudi Arabia or other conservative places. Those who I have talked to do not feel forced to use it because to them it gives them privacy from prying eyes, at least when they are trying to adapt from hedonistic American culture. If someone is unkind to them, it is nothing more than what they expected.

These days I feel that the idea that these women are forced to wear the Niqab is a blatant western fantasy.

Each to their own. I'd hate to think anyone in the west is forced to wear a Niquab - the oppression of women is awful in places like Saudi.

Arguing that women who freely choose wear Niquabs are perpetuating their own oppression is like saying women who chose to wear turtlenecks and long skirts are doing the same. Discouraging a woman from wearing a Niquab is as bad as discouraging her from being in public uncovered.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Discouraging a woman from wearing a Niquab is as bad as discouraging her from being in public uncovered.

Uncovered is natural and normal, and it should be normalized rather than shamed. If a man can't control his hands and dick (the reasons such dress mandates exist), it's on him, it's his problem.

 

[Dan Mellis]

Uncovered is natural and normal, and it should be normalized rather than shamed. If a man can't control his hands and dick (the reasons such dress mandates exist), it's on him, it's his problem.

I completely agree - but if a woman would like to cover up entirely that's her choice regardless of what the men are doing around her. Men an control their actions regardless of what a woman is wearing, so if she choses to wear a bikini or a Niquab, that is entorely her choice and the male gaze shouldn't even be part of her consideration

I accept that's why the Niquab exists and that's functionally probably why it's worn. Mine was more of a theoretical argument - in a perfect world that's where we'd be.

 

[PureX]

A couple of thoughts on the subject ...

1. To conceal oneself while mixing in a culture where everyone else is available to the judging eyes of others will inevitably inspire some resentment.

2. I don't believe that women hiding their 'allure' with tent-like clothing significantly stifles lecherous thoughts in the minds of men. It's just as likely to inspire them (that which is hidden becomes that much more alluring).

3. Hiding a woman's physical individuality would seem to me to be an effective way of also denying their humanity. When you deny your 'self' to the world, it's easy for the world to deny you as a 'self', in return.

 

[Revoltingest]

These days I feel that the idea that these women are forced to wear the Niqab is a blatant western fantasy.

If this were true, why are there laws, police, & even vigilantes to force this garb upon them?

 

[icehorse]

These days I feel that the idea that these women are forced to wear the Niqab is a blatant western fantasy.

Across the world, there is a high correlation between Muslim majority societies and places where it's LEAST SAFE to be a woman. The problem I have with Niqabs and such is the high likelihood that behind closed doors there is coercion, and often violent coercion.

[GALLERY=media, 7647]Secure-v7 by icehorse posted Aug 27, 2016 at 9:14 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Across the world, there is a high correlation between Muslim majority societies and places where it's LEAST SAFE to be a woman. The problem I have with Niqabs and such is the high likelihood that behind closed doors there is coercion, and often violent coercion.

[GALLERY=media, 7647]Secure-v7 by icehorse posted Aug 27, 2016 at 9:14 AM[/GALLERY]

Again with the Muslim bashing based on inconsequential and ad hoc data? Tell us again how you don't have an agenda?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Each to their own. I'd hate to think anyone in the west is forced to wear a Niquab - the oppression of women is awful in places like Saudi.

Arguing that women who freely choose wear Niquabs are perpetuating their own oppression is like saying women who chose to wear turtlenecks and long skirts are doing the same.

How about requiring women to cover their breasts?

 

[icehorse]

Again with the Muslim bashing based on inconsequential and ad hoc data? Tell us again how you don't have an agenda?

When did I say I didn't have an agenda? Isn't it right there where I listed my "religion:"?

As for your characterization of those maps, what kind of data would you like to see? And why - despite all the evidence - do you want to deny how misogynistic Islam is?

 

[Dan Mellis]

How about requiring women to cover their breasts?

Again, societal values. There are places where covering your breasts is unsual. I disagree with this being enshrined in law.

 

[Revoltingest]

Again, societal values. There are places where covering your breasts is unsual. I disagree with this being enshrined in law.

Something occurred to me.
I'll wager....
Societies which cover them have more names for them.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

When did I say I didn't have an agenda? Isn't it right there where I listed my "religion:"?

You've repeatedly claimed you're equally against ALL religion. You apparent fixation on Islam suggests otherwise.

As for your characterization of those maps, what kind of data would you like to see? And why - despite all the evidence - do you want to deny how misogynistic Islam is?

Because it's begging the question, first of all, the correlation between Islam and "female insecurity" is tenuous, at best, in those maps. Off the top of my head, proximity to the equator seems to have a stronger correlation. But even if the correlation was direct, we run up against the old saw; correlation doesn't mean causation. You say Islam is misogynistic based on those maps? Strange you jump straight to Islam as cause. Seems a pretty strong correlation with developmental economies and civil unrest. Could it be that those are factors?

What really ****s me about all the sanctimonious Muslim bashing is that the cultures you're happily pouring your scorn upon from atop your so high a-horse are pretty much identical to our own culture when we existed at those economic development levels. IMHO Islam is no more inherently misogynistic than Christianity or Judaism. The problems you gleefully rush to condemn Islam for existed in our own majority Christian countries within living memory. Economic opportunity and liberal democracy brings social and religious reform. getting all high and mighty about people in a peasant economy acting the way people in peasant economies of every religion always have is naiive, at best. And frankly, I think you are too intelligent to be so naiive.

I, personally, think Islam is a pretty silly religion. I don't like it, I find the apologetics deeply flawed and the exegesis ad hoc. But there's nothing inherently wrong with it, per se. Demonising its believers for stuff that isn't actually anything to do with their religion, while condemning the cultural practices of Muslims with double standards and otherising is only going to cause problems.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Again, societal values. There are places where covering your breasts is unsual. I disagree with this being enshrined in law.

And yet, most places it is. Strange those all fired up about how terrible the niqab is aren't overly concerned with women being compelled to cover their breasts.