The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Ingledsva]

Not real sure where you are coming from but I really see how religion has destroyed many believer faith but I also know we need our faith to be destroyed so we can hear as a spiritual man instead of a religious man. Ray Prinzing wrote the following on Lazarus

THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16

Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.

The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).

Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

I too think that the Lazarus story is a parable.

However I think it is a teaching story showing the "gulf" in Sheol, between those whom sinned, and those whom followed the Law and thus are placed at the head table reclining in "peace" waiting for the prophesied end time, and the others whom "KNOW" they fell, and placed themselves far from the table, and now "burn" for even a drop of spiritual water, or a crumb from the table. They have placed themselves far from God.


There is no burning in Hell reference in the Lazarus verses.


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[Ingledsva]

Instead of these ridiculous cryptic answers - why don't you try telling us what you think Acts 15:16-18 means - in relation to his "consequence" question - since you replied to it?

I do. With people who I have a reason to debate
All you have is personal attacks

Really? Go back and look. I asked this after you posted - as usual - to someone else - and didn't answer their question - and as usual posted verses.


The majority of the time you put in something cryptic, add verses, and tell people they just don't understand.


When asked to give your understanding of the verses YOU posted - you post more of the same - and the above answer!




*

 

[Ingledsva]

...
Isa. 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

These words are horribly mistranslated - and because of this error - "most" Christians teach "precept upon precept" and "here a little, there a little" as being correct teaching techniques.

In reality it is teaching AGAINST such.


Isa 28:3 The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet;


Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are off of the path; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are off of the path through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.


Isa 28:8 Consequently the whole spread is set with vomit and excrement/polluted, as long as these conditions (exist.)

Isa 28:9 To whom (shall) he/They teach Knowledge? And to whom shall he/they transfer the doctrine, and wean from the milk, and draw from the breasts?

Isa 28:10 Because of commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment; rule upon rule, rule upon rule; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11 Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance spoken to his people thus.

Isa 28:12 To whom (they) say concerning this; a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey! (Contradictory statements)

Isa 28:13 For to these the words of YHVH (are just) commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, here a little there a little; because of this they advance forward, then stumble back, broken and ensnared, trapped!



*

 

[Benoni]

These words are horribly mistranslated - and because of this error - "most" Christians teach "precept upon precept" and "here a little, there a little" as being correct teaching techniques.

In reality it is teaching AGAINST such.


Isa 28:3 The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet;


Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are off of the path; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are off of the path through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.


Isa 28:8 Consequently the whole spread is set with vomit and excrement/polluted, as long as these conditions (exist.)

Isa 28:9 To whom (shall) he/They teach Knowledge? And to whom shall he/they transfer the doctrine, and wean from the milk, and draw from the breasts?

Isa 28:10 Because of commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment; rule upon rule, rule upon rule; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11 Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance spoken to his people thus.

Isa 28:12 To whom (they) say concerning this; a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey! (Contradictory statements)

Isa 28:13 For to these the words of YHVH (are just) commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, here a little there a little; because of this they advance forward, then stumble back, broken and ensnared, trapped!



*

Why are you quoting scripture to me?

 

[Ingledsva]

These words are horribly mistranslated - and because of this error - "most" Christians teach "precept upon precept" and "here a little, there a little" as being correct teaching techniques.

In reality it is teaching AGAINST such.


Isa 28:3 The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet;


Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are off of the path; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are off of the path through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.


Isa 28:8 Consequently the whole spread is set with vomit and excrement/polluted, as long as these conditions (exist.)

Isa 28:9 To whom (shall) he/They teach Knowledge? And to whom shall he/they transfer the doctrine, and wean from the milk, and draw from the breasts?

Isa 28:10 Because of commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment; rule upon rule, rule upon rule; here a little, and there a little:

Isa 28:11 Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance spoken to his people thus.

Isa 28:12 To whom (they) say concerning this; a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey! (Contradictory statements)

Isa 28:13 For to these the words of YHVH (are just) commandment upon commandment, commandment upon commandment, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, here a little there a little; because of this they advance forward, then stumble back, broken and ensnared, trapped!

Why are you quoting scripture to me?

Read the first two sentences.


You implied the scriptures meant something else.


I showed what they actually mean.


Christians keep using these verses in the wrong way.



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[Benoni]

[/b][/font]



Read the first two sentences.


You implied the scriptures meant something else.


I showed what they actually mean.


Christians keep using these verses in the wrong way.



*

Are you a Christian?

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you a Christian?

No I am not; - however, I can read what the verses say.


They are very obviously saying wishy-washy teaching of PARTS of the Bible is causing confusion. One says one thing, then another says something else, - and the people - move forward - and then stumble back - trapped.


*

 

[Benoni]

No I am not; - however, I can read what the verses say.


They are very obviously saying wishy-washy teaching of PARTS of the Bible is causing confusion. One says one thing, then another says something else, - and the people - move forward - and then stumble back - trapped.


*

So you can read?
So why do you care?
Just because you can read something does not make you an expert.
Pretty much everything I see in these religious understanding I see it totally different.
I think it strange to debate someone like you who does not believe but try’s to tell I am wrong.
You and I agree we do not believe in hell but I base my belief on the Bible. What do you base your belief on?

Take Isa. 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I know you did not like the translation but I still do not see what the big change was? To me the verse is saying God’s Word is learned in pieces.
I gave to samples of different verses that had the same message

 

[Ingledsva]

So you can read?
So why do you care?
Just because you can read something does not make you an expert.
Pretty much everything I see in these religious understanding I see it totally different.


I translated it.


I think it strange to debate someone like you who does not believe but try’s to tell I am wrong.


Actually I said most Christians have this one wrong.


You and I agree we do not believe in hell but I base my belief on the Bible. What do you base your belief on?


I base my debate on what the Bible actually says. I am interested in religion and philosophy, the movements of ancient people, and the transfer of language and ideas over time.


Take Isa. 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I know you did not like the translation but I still do not see what the big change was? To me the verse is saying God’s Word is learned in pieces.
I gave to samples of different verses that had the same message

I suggest you reread what I wrote.

It say exactly the opposite of what you are saying it means.


It does NOT mean YHVH's word is learned in pieces.


It is in fact condemning the priests whom are teaching in that manner, causing the people to slip backward.


28:1 says WOE to the drunkards of Ephraim.


28:7 tells us those erring drunkards are the priests and prophets.


28:8 tells us the priests' and prophets' information is thus contaminated


28:9 asks - how then can they draw people away from baby food - to the real meal that should have been pure - not contaminated - at the table in 28:8.

28:10 tells us it is BECAUSE OF the way they are teaching with broken up bits of commandments, rules, etc -


28:11 says it is Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance


28:12 says because of this bits and pieces drunken style , instead of in context, with real teachers, they make confusing (Contradictory statements) = one says a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey!


28:13 tells us this causes the people to move forward with one - and slide right back again with the next, caught-trapped in the confusing stupidity of the contradictory bits and pieces messages they are receiving from the priests and prophets.





*

 

[Benoni]

I suggest you reread what I wrote.

It say exactly the opposite of what you are saying it means.


It does NOT mean YHVH's word is learned in pieces.


It is in fact condemning the priests whom are teaching in that manner, causing the people to slip backward.


28:1 says WOE to the drunkards of Ephraim.


28:7 tells us those erring drunkards are the priests and prophets.


28:8 tells us the priests' and prophets' information is thus contaminated


28:9 asks - how then can they draw people away from baby food - to the real meal that should have been pure - not contaminated - at the table in 28:8.

28:10 tells us it is BECAUSE OF the way they are teaching with broken up bits of commandments, rules, etc -


28:11 says it is Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance


28:12 says because of this bits and pieces drunken style , instead of in context, with real teachers, they make confusing (Contradictory statements) = one says a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey!


28:13 tells us this causes the people to move forward with one - and slide right back again with the next, caught-trapped in the confusing stupidity of the contradictory bits and pieces messages they are receiving from the priests and prophets.





*

I saw all of that but I approch it totally different then others. I see the Bible as a spiritual Word and these literal nuggets speak lets call it a spiritual language to thise who have ears to hear.

the literal language means little to nothing but the spiritual language its what God is saying. There is the letter that killeth and the spirit quicken.

Most believers know only the letter as you are quoting






1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).



God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, used 27 times in NT) patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes. A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.



Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

 

[Ingledsva]

I suggest you reread what I wrote.

It say exactly the opposite of what you are saying it means.


It does NOT mean YHVH's word is learned in pieces.


It is in fact condemning the priests whom are teaching in that manner, causing the people to slip backward.


28:1 says WOE to the drunkards of Ephraim.


28:7 tells us those erring drunkards are the priests and prophets.


28:8 tells us the priests' and prophets' information is thus contaminated


28:9 asks - how then can they draw people away from baby food - to the real meal that should have been pure - not contaminated - at the table in 28:8.

28:10 tells us it is BECAUSE OF the way they are teaching with broken up bits of commandments, rules, etc -


28:11 says it is Because of unintelligible prattling, his words are a hindrance


28:12 says because of this bits and pieces drunken style , instead of in context, with real teachers, they make confusing (Contradictory statements) = one says a place of rest for the weary; and another, rest not content, obey!


28:13 tells us this causes the people to move forward with one - and slide right back again with the next, caught-trapped in the confusing stupidity of the contradictory bits and pieces messages they are receiving from the priests and prophets.

I saw all of that but I approch it totally different then others. I see the Bible as a spiritual Word and these literal nuggets speak lets call it a spiritual language to thise who have ears to hear.

the literal language means little to nothing but the spiritual language its what God is saying. There is the letter that killeth and the spirit quicken.

Most believers know only the letter as you are quoting


Ingledsva - - BALONEY!!! I obviously have no problem with approaching the Bible differently - as I do as well.

However - There is a difference between approaching differently - and error in translating the texts!

You made specifically false statements about the text. It does NOT mean what you said it does.


If, as you stated, "the literal language means little to nothing," You should toss the Bible, along with all other religious dogma, and be coming from a NO-RELIGION, only Spirituality stance. You are not - and that puts the FALSE to what you are preaching.



1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

NT:5178 a

tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture).


Ingledsva - - What is your point here? You didn't even start with a correctly translated text! Besides, you said, "the literal language means little to nothing,"


God speaks thought His Word in many hidden and ways the below verse speaks of parable; but I will also add spiritual or scriptural numbers, mysteries (Gk) Sacred secrets, used 27 times in NT) patterns, types, different languages, even deceptions to hide His word from the religious, the , wise, the carnal; and reveal it to babes. A babe is not the same as someone who can handle the milk of the word, anyone can handle milk; but a babe is like my small grandchildren when I speak to them; they trust everything I say, they have ears to hear.


Ingledsva - - You have that one BACKWARD again. It specifically points out the CONTAMINATED TABLE of the Priests and Prophets. Then 28:9 asks how can they then wean people AWAY-FROM the simple breast milk of babies - to the real MEAT on the table - since their stupidity has contaminated the whole "spread" on their table?


Matthew 13 :13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

That last is taken out of context. You can't use it to cover mistranslation, misunderstanding the text, or for just any crack-pot idea people out there have. "What do you mean it doesn't talk about "transcended donkeys" - It is hidden in the text, and I understand what it really means!"




*

 

[Benoni]

That last is taken out of context. You can't use it to cover mistranslation, misunderstanding the text, or for just any crack-pot idea people out there have. "What do you mean it doesn't talk about "transcended donkeys" - It is hidden in the text, and I understand what it really means!"




*

You do not see my point

 

[Ingledsva]

That last is taken out of context. You can't use it to cover mistranslation, misunderstanding the text, or for just any crack-pot idea people out there have. "What do you mean it doesn't talk about "transcended donkeys" - It is hidden in the text, and I understand what it really means!"

You do not see my point

Really? And how exactly are you getting your - "spiritual language to thise who have ears to hear" - from mistranslated texts that you obviously don't even understand in their basic everyday world meaning?



*

 

[Benoni]

[/color][/font][/b]



Really? And how exactly are you getting your - "spiritual language to thise who have ears to hear" - from mistranslated texts that you obviously don't even understand in their basic everyday world meaning?



*

Really, I doubt if you will ever know because you have it all figured out

 

[Ingledsva]

Really, I doubt if you will ever know because you have it all figured out

That is not a logical answer.


*

 

[Benoni]

That is not a logical answer.


*

Do you really think your attack on scripture is logical for you to understand scripture. You are against scripture and every attempt I have written to you find fault; you are not a believer and you have nothing to hear accept for you to criticize. Here is a verse for you

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Pearls our symbolic of precious truth
A swine is an unclean animal in the OT
You do not have ears to hear at all so read all you can read you will never get the message

 

[Ingledsva]

Do you really think your attack on scripture is logical for you to understand scripture. You are against scripture and every attempt I have written to you find fault; you are not a believer and you have nothing to hear accept for you to criticize. Here is a verse for you

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Ingledsva - How sweet of you! :sarcastic


Pearls our symbolic of precious truth
A swine is an unclean animal in the OT
You do not have ears to hear at all so read all you can read you will never get the message

I have not attacked the scripture.

I pointed out that - "YOU" - do not have a correct translation of the scripture, nor an understanding of the scripture -

and as such - logically - how can you claim to understand hidden meaning in such scripture?

You do not even understand the basic scripture.


*

 

[Benoni]

I have not attacked the scripture.

I pointed out that - "YOU" - do not have a correct translation of the scripture, nor an understanding of the scripture -

and as such - logically - how can you claim to understand hidden meaning in such scripture?

You do not even understand the basic scripture.


*

God is not human nor does He have a carnal brain and human carnal logic

Does God see things?
Does God have eyes?

He is a spirit and has no reason to see like we humans see.

For you to see what God is seeing you need to have spiritual eyes and all your logic and human understand come from human sight and understanding.

You do not have spiritual sight so you frankly do not see basic spiritual understanding and knowledge. Oh I am sure you can read the Bible like most believers. But even the basic believer is one step above you no matter what intelligence level they may be. For they see at least something whatever level God has placed them.

I am not concerned about what translations are the best, most logical; it means nothing for every one of them was written by carnal human scholars like you who rely on human intellect and reason.

This is why christianity has so many religions most of the believers are not spiritual but logical.

 

[Ingledsva]

I have not attacked the scripture.

I pointed out that - "YOU" - do not have a correct translation of the scripture, nor an understanding of the scripture -

and as such - logically - how can you claim to understand hidden meaning in such scripture?

You do not even understand the basic scripture.

God is not human nor does He have a carnal brain and human carnal logic

Does God see things?
Does God have eyes?

He is a spirit and has no reason to see like we humans see.

For you to see what God is seeing you need to have spiritual eyes and all your logic and human understand come from human sight and understanding.

You do not have spiritual sight so you frankly do not see basic spiritual understanding and knowledge. Oh I am sure you can read the Bible like most believers. But even the basic believer is one step above you no matter what intelligence level they may be. For they see at least something whatever level God has placed them.

I am not concerned about what translations are the best, most logical; it means nothing for every one of them was written by carnal human scholars like you who rely on human intellect and reason.

This is why christianity has so many religions most of the believers are not spiritual but logical.

This has become quite funny.


You spout verses at people - and then when called on your understanding of such - YOU tell us these VERY same verses are worthless as they are written by humans. LOL!


YOU spout what you claim is the hidden meaning behind these very same verses - but you can't translate the basic verse, or understand them -


SO - how are you getting the hidden meaning behind these - worthless carnal human penned verses, - that you can't translate or understand?


And even more basic - why are you trying to sway people using what YOU believe are one religion's worthless carnal texts?


*

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

All I know, is that if there is a Hell and suffering...eternal fires and all that won't do it for me...

If there's a punishment that Satan would bestow upon me, that would be to bind me, cover my body with honey/rotting flesh, then place me in a chamber with millions of biting/flesh eating flies.

I really, really loathe flies. One just has to land on my nose and I go totally ballistic...and living in the Australian bush....that's not a good thing.

*room is full of flies atm and I am getting rather annoyed and about to go commit a massive act of himsa (violence) by getting the can of spray out.