The Self and the Universe

[Xafwak]

Some RHP religions, mostly the eastern ones, have the idea of oneness of everything. For example in Hinduism the souls wander through the ages until they become enlightened and join Brahman, becoming one. These religions promote the idea of joining the self with the Universe.

Modern LHP traditions, like the Church of Satan, focus on the self, the ego of an individual. The idea is to empower, become a god. This is the philosophy that has been the basis of my world view since becoming a satanist. The last thing a satanist would want to happen is to lose the self´s identity to a greater power, thus staying as far away as possible from this "enlightenment".

For the last couple of months I have studied this subject a lot, and given it a lot of thought. My paradox has been that my self in itself wouldn´t be able to empower without the Dark One. But the empowerment in itself means cutting the dependence on anything external to the psyche, making the psyche an independent bastion of the self, leaving the self the only god.

One of the first possibilities that came to my mind was that I myself am the Dark One, which would practically mean that I should redefine myself a LaVeyan. This didn´t seem a very viable option to me, since it would require that I had given the dark gift to myself. I felt like I had arrived to a dead end, that a self-respecting satanist couldn´t possibly believe in the existence of Satan, and that the dark gift was nothing short of an illusion. My first spiritual crisis in satanism, sort of.

However, then I ran accross the eastern traditions´ becoming one with the universe belief, something I had forgotten long ago. I finally concluded, based on the possibility of strengthening the connection between the self and the universe, that the path for becoming a deity the self must reach out to the Dark One, reach out to the Universe, and taking it under control, as opposed to eastern "enlightenment". The self becomes the Dark One. This is a state I call the Abyss, when the self has become a god. In the Abyss the self and the Universe are one, but the Universe has become a mere extension of the self. That is why people who claim to have seen the Abyss see what they see, it comes from their own mind.

I believe this is the basis of magick. When opposite to handing out the self to the Universe, the self manipulates the Universe itself. I now understand the practice of magick a lot better as well.

Thoughts?

 

[aa_nerut]

If I may put my thoughts towards this.

I would like to start by asking you to define god, as in the thing in which you are attempting to become.

"my self in itself wouldn´t be able to empower without the Dark One."
Doesn't this sound like a very limiting statement? One of the things I always appreciated about the different forms of Satanism is the self empowering idea. What never made sense to me though was why someone would choose to be self empowered then instantly change the idea to, well actually I get my empower from (fill in the blank Satan type figure). It seems to cancel out the pursuit of Self discovery and empowerment.

As far as the I am the Dark One idea and that equating you as a LaVeyan, I would recommend taking a listen to an interview from Dr. Aquino on khpr the voice of darkness. He says a very important thing about people outside of the ToS being able to do the same thing as people inside the ToS. The "trappings" that you decide to dress your environment, mode of initiation, or understanding is simply a tool for you to access your self. If it makes sense for you to use modern LHP imagery to facilitate this then by all means do so, but keep in mind it is a trigger, a magical link so to speak, for you to understand what you are experiencing as a form of common language or key on a map to define your experiences as a means of ease.

To me, I would think that if you come to realize that you are the Dark One, the only thing that makes you is YOU, not a LaVeyan, or anything else.

Another question, when were you given this "dark gift"? Do you remember an exact date? How would you describe this "dark gift"?

I think that this is one of those areas that seems to get too mystical for anyone's own good. The dark gift concept always seems to give off the impression that only certain people have it, making a clear distinction between one group of humans and another. Here is another thing I enjoy about Satanism, though mostly from a LaVeyan stream of thought, people are people, we are all animals. We are all from the same group, the only difference is the little nuances that make you, you.

The dark gift then would seem to say, well people aren't all people, in fact there are those who were given a little extra something, be it at birth or some time after, that makes them not human. Seems to go against Satanic thought, even Dr. Aquino seems to be saying in that interview I mentioned about, that we, humans, as a species, are all cut from the same cloth. This means that the dark gift is not some much a birthday present you get when you're old enough to use it, a light saber or magic wand or what have you, but rather it is something that is inherent in the human species as a whole, i.e. genetic. So the dark gift was actually from your parents, not some Dark One.

Granted the theory is that the dark gift was given to the species some time back by the Dark One, though I personally find it to be nothing more than just how our species evolved. Not all animals evolve the same way, though I don't discount that there could have been some foreign agent that may have cause mutations in our ancestors to cause our current state of being.

One thing I would like to ask as well is do you equate the Dark One with the Universe? I got that impression from this statement of yours "the path for becoming a deity the self must reach out to the Dark One, reach out to the Universe, and taking it under control..." If so are you reaching out to the Dark One, i.e. the Universe, and controlling it? Or is this more you must reach out to the Dark One. You must then also reach out to the Universe, which is not the Dark One, and control the Universe?

I guess it could be either, so if you wouldn't mine clearing that up for me, I'd appreciate it.

If the self becomes the Dark One, what does the Dark One become? In addition to that, if you become the Dark One before I do, then I become the Dark One, does that make you null and void as the Dark One?

Again you say that you are the Dark One, meaning you are now in the state referred to as the Abyss. The self and the Universe are one, I guess meaning that the Dark One and the Universe were one prior to you becoming the Dark One? If this is the case, would the Dark One not be God then? It would after all be the controlling factor of It's Self, i.e. the Universe. How then do you define God and the Dark One, or is there no God, which I would then think there would be no Dark One, and no point or goal in a quest to becoming the Dark One, which doesn't exist?

I am also curious on the manipulations of the Universe I hear about quite often. The claim by many that "magic can manipulate the world around you by your own will" may fly in the idea of social manipulations but real concrete manifestations or alterations of/in the Cosmos itself, well no one has yet been able to show valid proof of this. So what is it that we are to assume we manipulate thru the will?

These are just some areas to look at a little deeper, or completely disregard.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

One of the first possibilities that came to my mind was that I myself am the Dark One, which would practically mean that I should redefine myself a LaVeyan. This didn´t seem a very viable option to me, since it would require that I had given the dark gift to myself.

What do you mean by the dark gift? If you are talking about your perspective on the universe and how you view things and move in the world, then you are what you are as a result of your own genetic disposition and potential. Why give the credit for what you are to something else? The type of person that is born and lives as a Satanist is a rare thing. Revel in it.

 

[aa_nerut]

Satans Serrated Edge,
I would add something else to the comment "you are what you are as a result of your own genetic disposition and potential." You are also what you are do to your exposure to everything you have been exposed to.

It's that whole nature vs nurture idea. I am a be proponent of saying it is both with an additional what you choose to do with it. I always found the statement of Satanist's are Born not Made to be a rather false statement. There aren't any Born Satanist. Satanists must first learn what Satanism is before saying one way or the other if they are such a thing. I have not seen any children being Satanic in my life. I have seen different kinds of children behaving differently. I have seen children behave certain ways because of genetics and I have seen them act certain ways because they picked up traits from others (i.e. learning).

We are creatures that adapt. We learn and evolve throughout our lives. We are not the same person we were as children, or as high school students, parents, grand-parents, etc. So why would it be that we are or are not Satanist simply because we are born one way or the other. This type of thought, the Born not Made thought just goes completely against the idea of education and learning, adapting or evolution. It says we are simply because we are born that way.

That then starts the thought of only the strong survive and superiority of one over the other. But the strong aren't the only ones that survive, the weak do too, the sick and infected, the corrupted do, this is very evident in genetic diseases, or the fact that the best or strongest traits aren't always the traits the new born is born with.

The Born not Made idea to me is just a way of attempting to prove to oneself that you are worthwhile or even better than another. I'm elite because I was Born a Satanist, haha I'm better than you and didn't even have to do any thing!

I do agree with the part of your statement "...and lives as a Satanist is a rare thing." which to me signifies choice. A person chooses to be or live as a Satanist, this is completely evident in the whole fact that they choose to use the name Satanist to describe themselves. I do find it strange to be on a quest for complete and utter self empowerment and freedom and/or individuality yet choose to call them self anything other they them self. Satanist is a term that someone else created, wont say it was LaVey, as I'm sure others have used it to some extent prior to him. But I was once caught up in the same spot too, calling myself this or that.

Now I'm not saying you are advocating the Born not Made idea, as you didn't say it directly, I am just commenting on something that I noticed that might sway in that direction and am posting for further discussion by either yourself or others as well.

But I guess I could put that question out there, Born vs. Made, or the exact way of saying it as well, nature vs nurture, What do you believe. Maybe I should start my own thread instead.

 

[Xafwak]

If I may put my thoughts towards this.

I would like to start by asking you to define god, as in the thing in which you are attempting to become.

"my self in itself wouldn´t be able to empower without the Dark One."
Doesn't this sound like a very limiting statement? One of the things I always appreciated about the different forms of Satanism is the self empowering idea. What never made sense to me though was why someone would choose to be self empowered then instantly change the idea to, well actually I get my empower from (fill in the blank Satan type figure). It seems to cancel out the pursuit of Self discovery and empowerment.

As far as the I am the Dark One idea and that equating you as a LaVeyan, I would recommend taking a listen to an interview from Dr. Aquino on khpr the voice of darkness. He says a very important thing about people outside of the ToS being able to do the same thing as people inside the ToS. The "trappings" that you decide to dress your environment, mode of initiation, or understanding is simply a tool for you to access your self. If it makes sense for you to use modern LHP imagery to facilitate this then by all means do so, but keep in mind it is a trigger, a magical link so to speak, for you to understand what you are experiencing as a form of common language or key on a map to define your experiences as a means of ease.

To me, I would think that if you come to realize that you are the Dark One, the only thing that makes you is YOU, not a LaVeyan, or anything else.

Another question, when were you given this "dark gift"? Do you remember an exact date? How would you describe this "dark gift"?

I think that this is one of those areas that seems to get too mystical for anyone's own good. The dark gift concept always seems to give off the impression that only certain people have it, making a clear distinction between one group of humans and another. Here is another thing I enjoy about Satanism, though mostly from a LaVeyan stream of thought, people are people, we are all animals. We are all from the same group, the only difference is the little nuances that make you, you.

The dark gift then would seem to say, well people aren't all people, in fact there are those who were given a little extra something, be it at birth or some time after, that makes them not human. Seems to go against Satanic thought, even Dr. Aquino seems to be saying in that interview I mentioned about, that we, humans, as a species, are all cut from the same cloth. This means that the dark gift is not some much a birthday present you get when you're old enough to use it, a light saber or magic wand or what have you, but rather it is something that is inherent in the human species as a whole, i.e. genetic. So the dark gift was actually from your parents, not some Dark One.

Granted the theory is that the dark gift was given to the species some time back by the Dark One, though I personally find it to be nothing more than just how our species evolved. Not all animals evolve the same way, though I don't discount that there could have been some foreign agent that may have cause mutations in our ancestors to cause our current state of being.

One thing I would like to ask as well is do you equate the Dark One with the Universe? I got that impression from this statement of yours "the path for becoming a deity the self must reach out to the Dark One, reach out to the Universe, and taking it under control..." If so are you reaching out to the Dark One, i.e. the Universe, and controlling it? Or is this more you must reach out to the Dark One. You must then also reach out to the Universe, which is not the Dark One, and control the Universe?

I guess it could be either, so if you wouldn't mine clearing that up for me, I'd appreciate it.

If the self becomes the Dark One, what does the Dark One become? In addition to that, if you become the Dark One before I do, then I become the Dark One, does that make you null and void as the Dark One?

Again you say that you are the Dark One, meaning you are now in the state referred to as the Abyss. The self and the Universe are one, I guess meaning that the Dark One and the Universe were one prior to you becoming the Dark One? If this is the case, would the Dark One not be God then? It would after all be the controlling factor of It's Self, i.e. the Universe. How then do you define God and the Dark One, or is there no God, which I would then think there would be no Dark One, and no point or goal in a quest to becoming the Dark One, which doesn't exist?

I am also curious on the manipulations of the Universe I hear about quite often. The claim by many that "magic can manipulate the world around you by your own will" may fly in the idea of social manipulations but real concrete manifestations or alterations of/in the Cosmos itself, well no one has yet been able to show valid proof of this. So what is it that we are to assume we manipulate thru the will?

These are just some areas to look at a little deeper, or completely disregard.

A god is something that can escape natural boundaries, and the more and more a being can escape them, the more "god" it becomes. So there is no real border on what is a god, just what is more god than the other. This is why I dislike using the word, although sometimes there´s no better alternative.

My problem was exactly what you described in the second paragraph. What is Satan needed for, if it´s self-empowering?

The dark gift is in every human, since the moment the first nervous systems develop in the womb. How it is used or even sensed by the individual depends, however. I call it a gift because it´s supernatural. It´s within everything highly sentinent, it´s very possible that it´s within developed animals too, although they don´t show signs of spiritualism. The dark gift gives the conciousness, it´s actually a synonym to the soul.

The Dark One, ie Satan, isn´t equal to the Universe, he doesn´t even exist within the boundaries of this Universe. However, Satan is such a powerful being that he can affect not only his own Universe, but ours as well. Should it happen that one empowers himself enough, he can affect not only our Universe, but others as well, and Satan himself. I don´t think anyone has succeeded in empowering that much yet.

You may choose to not believe in magic(k), and I´m quite certain many magicians are just causing effects in other people, not the natural laws. But the field is very weakly researched, since it´s a tabu for the general populace.

 

[Adramelek]

The Dark One, ie Satan, isn´t equal to the Universe, he doesn´t even exist within the boundaries of this Universe. However, Satan is such a powerful being that he can affect not only his own Universe, but ours as well. Should it happen that one empowers himself enough, he can affect not only our Universe, but others as well, and Satan himself. I don´t think anyone has succeeded in empowering that much yet.

I like this Xafwak... excellent perspective.:bat: Frubals coming your way.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Satans Serrated Edge,


Now I'm not saying you are advocating the Born not Made idea, as you didn't say it directly, I am just commenting on something that I noticed that might sway in that direction and am posting for further discussion by either yourself or others as well.

.

I agree with the majority of your post, but feel I should clarify what I, at least, understand 'born not made' to mean. I don't think it literally means you are ejected from the vagina giving the sign of the horns while rocking out to 'dimmu borgir', but rather born with a certain set of aptitudes to understand the world in a certain way.

Whether or not such a person ever picks up TSB and reads it is another thing. Such a person may never accept the label, and I think taking the label is critical to 'being' something, religiously speaking.

'Born not made' to me is a linguistic demarcation to the fact that not everyone has this natural disposition nor does everyone possess the potential to understand the world as a Satanist does. I don't think just anyone can 'be' a Satanist.

 

[ktf]

In what way is this "dark gift" supernatural? What evidence do we have that the "dark gift" is not a natural phenomenon, adequately explained by the engine of natural selection?

 

[aa_nerut]

Satans Serrated Edge
You wrote…
“..born with a certain set of aptitudes to understand the world in a certain way. ”
This would give the impression that only those people born with that set of aptitudes could ever understand the world in a Satanic way, which says that it is something that just is impossible to be learned. Would assume that this would have to be passed down genetically from the parents, who either they or someone down the line had the same way of thinking that would cause for a genetic “mutation” that would allow for such a set of aptitudes to be present. There would be a lineage of Satanic genes that every true Satanist, those being born with those set of aptitudes, could trace back to a common ancestor. I just don’t think I can agree with this.
I think you said something important with the “taking the label is critical to ‘being’ something” which I believe is in the form of education, learning what Satanism is and accepting it as a philosophy to live your life. But the fun part about Satanism is the individuality in not only the self but the way that one sees Satanism, that no two Satanists are ever experiencing nor practicing Satanism the same way. This should be very evident if you have ever been on a Satanism forum and watch everyone explain how everyone else is wrong in Satanism.
As much as I agree with your idea that “not everyone possess the potential to understand the world as a Satanist does”, I am under the impression that this is true with anyone and any thing out there in the form of philosophy, religion, and social interactions and world views. But to say that people cannot be educated and changed their views because of a new found understand completely limits the notion of what is learnable and what is not. I just think that education is the most important element in taking the label of anything.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I don't think what makes a person able to 'be' a Satanist is genetic (although I wouldn't rule it out as a factor), but whatever mechanisms that cause peoples dispositions to form is certainly at play here. Not everyone has the intellectual capacity. Not everyone lives in the here and now and feels no pull towards the 'father figure' sort of spirituality that is prevalent in society today. Not everyone sees beauty in the cold hard brutal reality that is natural selection, the food chain, and carnal existence in general. Not everyone feels a pull toward the dark side.
This much would be hard to argue.

Where my personal opinion comes in to this , based off experience and decades of dealing with other 'Satanists', both authentic and superficial, is that not everyone is capable of arriving at this 'Satanic' place regardless of desire. You either are or you are not.

 

[aa_nerut]

Xafwak,
I might have to ask for some evidence of something escaping the natural boundaries.

The fun thing about souls and spirits and well just about every ancient term for the soul is that it is equated with breath. This makes perfect sense too when you think about the idea of an animal alive vs dead. The spark of life is evident when one is alive and breathing, it is gone when one is dead and doesn’t breathe. I think it is a great way for a superstitious mind to make sense of the world around it and to develop this into neat theories about what happens to the living when they die, but what is the soul other than the breath of life?
How is breath supernatural?

“The Dark One, ie Satan, isn´t equal to the Universe, he doesn´t even exist within the boundaries of this Universe. However, Satan is such a powerful being that he can affect not only his own Universe, but ours as well.”
Where then is Satan’s Universe? You say he can affect his own Universe and ours as well, meaning two different universes. Where would this be and what evidence do you have of its existence and his affect on our universe?
You wrote…
“Should it happen that one empowers himself enough, he can affect not only our Universe, but others as well, and Satan himself. I don´t think anyone has succeeded in empowering that much yet.”
Then why do you believe in such a thing?

 

[aa_nerut]

"You either are or you are not." but according to whom? Who would be the definer of what Satanism is or is not to say you either are or you are not.

p.s. Satans Serrated Edge I really enjoy your input and point of view.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

According to what has been defined as Satanism, and how I understand that, I suppose. Being the head cheese of my own Subjective Universe allows me to define things as I see fit.

I realize this doesn't allow a lot of leeway for debate, but I am more than happy to classify and define things for myself

 

[aa_nerut]

"Being the head cheese of my own Subjective Universe allows me to define things as I see fit."

This is exactly the reason I have taken such a hiatus from these types of conversations, this is exactly the end result, a completely valid result, and if you ask me a very important point in dealing with any philosophical conversation, but man is it ever frustrating!

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Yes. I agree.

I am not one to drift off into subjectivism, but some things can not be objectively nailed down. Luckily, the Subjective Universe allows for a greater deal of definition and finality than does the Objective Universe. Unfortunately, this realization is not always conducive to meaningful dialogue.

 

[Xafwak]

In what way is this "dark gift" supernatural? What evidence do we have that the "dark gift" is not a natural phenomenon, adequately explained by the engine of natural selection?

It is supernatural in the sense modern science can´t explain it. What is conciousness? Why do we have it? Why can I find a connection to Satan in my conciousness? It can´t be explained, so I call it supernatural.

Now, if science someday happened to find the reason/reasons why does conciousness or the illusion of it exist, I believe it´s natural. Afterall, what can be explained by the laws of nature is natural by definition.

It is by my conciousness that I have "found" Satan, and it is therefore true for me. I don´t go around bashing others' believes anymore like I used to, beause I have found out how fragile the concept of objective truth is. It doesn´t stop us from operating in full potential (ie. I won´t support any laws or state actions that are based on any religion, including my own).

 

[ktf]

Actually this is a common misconception.

We might not like the explaination science has for consciousness and what "it" is, we might not agree with them, but it is incorrect to claim that science has no explaination. The study of consciousness is one of the most revolutionary and rapidly expanding fields within neuroscience.
A simple web search can expose people to the scientific theories concerning consciousness.

Again, I am not saying we have to agree with the theories....but they exist. Science has multiple explainations for consciousness.

 

[Xafwak]

Actually this is a common misconception.

We might not like the explaination science has for consciousness and what "it" is, we might not agree with them, but it is incorrect to claim that science has no explaination. The study of consciousness is one of the most revolutionary and rapidly expanding fields within neuroscience.
A simple web search can expose people to the scientific theories concerning consciousness.

Again, I am not saying we have to agree with the theories....but they exist. Science has multiple explainations for consciousness.

None that I find satisfying and comprehensive.