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The Secret Rapture

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TheTruthWillSetUFree, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. angellous_evangellous

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    That's because some people who should be better spending their time on other things are reading the Bible and quite stupidly not paying attention to other literature of the same time period. There would be no doctrinal confusion whatsoever if folk knew that the rapture is not Christian doctrine but a Protestant fairy tale that has become something of a popular American fundamentalist wet-dream.
     
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  2. angellous_evangellous

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    Compare to http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm

    Plagarism is an ugly thing. It was plagarized from Joe Crews' What the Bible Says About the Secret Rapture.
     
  3. angellous_evangellous

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    Plagarized from the same source. http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm

     
  4. angellous_evangellous

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    More plagarism from http://www.present-truth.org/Bible%20Rapture.htm. One wonders if TheTruthWillSetYouFree will actually post something that they have written?

     
  5. angellous_evangellous

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    All that you've shown us is that you can copy and paste from more than one website.

    This one is taken from http://www.nisbett.com/library/ir-who_are_the_144000.html. It is "Who are the 144,000" by Doug Batchelor.

     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    lol all of JW beliefs are based on the bible , and those who remain faithful to Gods word are blessed with insight and understanding .it is all happening in these last days
    And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."
    (Matthew 13:11) In reply he said: "To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.......yes we are in the time of the end and its all happening , and has been since Jesus kingship in the heavens in 1914............. its surprising how people are not happy about all the things that are happening in these last days ,yet all the things happening are for the benefit of all mankind.yes faithfulness to Gods word leads to many blessings but unfaithfulness leads to cutting-off.
     
  7. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    they are being gathered right now and waving their palm branches in their hands to welcome Jesus as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom and they are a GREAT CROWD
    After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. revelation 7;9-10 ...yes its all happening right now ................................. but the ones of the LITTLE FLOCK are already in the kingdom with Jesus ,they are the spiritual Jews, but the gathering of the great crowd is getting larger and larger , there is no number for the great crowd time will tell who get through the tribulation ,but those who are going to heaven Jehovah has revealed that there are 144,000 .he knows how many he wants to rule as kings and priests in the heavenly kingdom, its all happening and i am waving my palm branch to welcome Jesus as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment
     
  8. Adstar

    Adstar Active Member

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    I think you are describing the Pre-Trib rapture position. I believe in post tribulation or more descriptively Pre-Wrath. Tribulation is what the worldly give to us. Wrath is what God gives to the worldly in response.

    The rapture that is called "caught up" in the bible will happen upon the return of the Messiah Jesus. This will happen in conjunction with the first resurrection of the saints. Jesus will return to earth in a similar way to His leaving earth. But of course it will be far more dramatic and many more people will observe it.

    The rapture will happen at the Last Trumpet, This trumpet is talked about in the book of Revelations. It is the last in a series of 7 trumpet sounding. This trumpet blast is also referred to in Matthew chapter 24 where Jesus describes His return to earth.

    The Best rapture scripture is in the Book of 1 Corinthians:


    1 Corrinthians15: 49,54

    49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.


    Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:


    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:


    51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:


    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

    So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.



    So now we go on to the next scripture:



    Revelation10: 7

    7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


    Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:


    Revelation8: 12

    12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.





    i hope this is what you where looking for?


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  9. Adstar

    Adstar Active Member

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    :) After reading through the many replies to the original observation and request. It seem to me that people are under the impression that Pre-Tribulation rapture is the Only rapture doctrine that exists. But that is not the case. Just because it is the most popular and has the best media coverage does not make it the only doctrine in town. :biglaugh:

    Jesus also talked about the rapture.

    Luke 17
    26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
    31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35
    Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."


    It is also good to Note that Jesus knew that this event would be a world wide happening see how he said "in that day" and also "in that night". :) Those that will be taken will be caught up to meet Jesus upon His Return to earth.



    Also i do not believe the 144,000 have anything to do with the rapture. They will not be raptured at all. The reason why they are sealed is to protect them from the wrath that is being poured out on earth at the time of the Messiah's Return. i believe the 144,000 are as stated in the bible Jewish innocents 12,000 from every tribe of Israel. They are the remnant talked about in the OT prophesies of the Day of The Lord.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  10. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    It's not that complicated. We make it too complicated.

    Daniel speaks of a resurrection of those living just prior to, or around, the time that the "Abomination of Desolation", is set up in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple.

    There is a second resurrection for those that will have not been worthy to partake of the first resurrection. They are they who have come through "great tribulation" and "have been made white through the blood of the lamb". They will have missed the first resurrection and will have to face the evilness of men on earth for the second half, or the final 3 1/2 years, of the great 7 year tribulation.

    We will all be going through the first half, or the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation, which will be glorious, for those that follow Christ, and will be a time of great prosperity, for those that follow Christ, and at the same time it will be a time of desolation for those that choose to reject Christ and his teachings of love, towards our fellow man.

    A man by the name of Kim Clement paints a good picture of the first half of the tribulation, for those that follow Christ. www.KimClement.com , click on prophecies.

    I strongly believe that the 7 year tribulation, spoken of by Daniel, will begin this year, 2006, beginning with some very distinct events, which will mark the beginning of the tribulation, for those that are watching for it.

    We will know when the beginning of the 7 year tribulation has started, because of the wrath that will be poured out on all those that fight against the lamb of God.
     
  11. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    May, with all due respect, you guys distort the Word of God and the reference to the year 1914 is nowhere in the original text or any the early century transcripts, in addition to other distorted passages of scripture that the JW book makes reference to. :jiggy:
     
  12. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I can't claim to be correct here...because I don't think that anyone can truly know what will take place...but this is my opinion on what I've read in the bible...

    I think that there will be two raptures if you will and if you don't like the word rapture...you can use "coming".

    I don't think that either will be secret, because when Jesus comes, the sky will open. I'm not sure how anyone will miss that. I believe when Christ comes the first go around...the dead in Christ will first rise and then the living in Christ.

    I believe that those who have accepted Christ now will be taken up with him and will NOT be here for the tribulation. I believe that there will be people who will come to Christ AFTER the first rapture and it is those believers who will ultimately face the most persecution and turmoil and will fight the final battle in armageddon. I believe that the 144,000 mentioned in the bible is composed of these individuals.

    And then...Christ will come again.

    Who knows if this is anywhere near the truth or not...it's just my sketchy take on what I've read. I simply take comfort in the fact that Jesus IS coming and as his sheep...I have no worries...any way it happens to occur.
     
  13. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    That's a pretty good passage that supports the argument for the Rapture.
     
  14. angellous_evangellous

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    In order to see the rapture in that text, the rapture must be assumed from other sources outside of Scripture.
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    for those who kept awake to bible prophecy and bible chronology it is as clear as a bell ,Jesus was made king right on time in 1914 , many are in the dark in a spiritual way because of so called religious leaders down through the centuries falling asleep and missing the signs, and because of this their flocks are also in the dark , its all happening in these last days
    1914—A Year Marked by Bible Chronology and World Events


    Chronology​


    → Bible foretold period of "seven times,"
    after which God would give world
    rulership to the one he chose
    (Daniel 4:3-17)
    → "Seven times" = 2,520 years
    (Compare Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14;
    Ezekiel 4:6.)
    → Beginning of "seven times": 607 B.C.E.
    (Ezekiel 21:25-27; Luke 21:24)
    → End of "seven times": 1914 C.E.
    Jesus Christ was then enthroned
    in heaven, began to rule amid
    his enemies (Psalm 110:1, 2)
    Satan was ousted from heaven;
    woe to mankind (Revelation 12:7-12)
    Last days began (2 Timothy 3:1-5)​
    Events Foretold to Mark Last Days


    → War (First world war began in 1914;​


    peace has never really returned)
    → Famine (Now claims some millions
    lives per year)
    → Disease epidemics (Despite
    advanced scientific research)
    → Earthquakes (On an average,
    about 20 times as many major
    ones since 1914)
    → Fear (Of crime, economic collapse,
    nuclear annihilation)ruining of the earth
     
  16. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Yeah and just like the founder of the Jehovah Witness movement predicted the end of the world and Jesus's return on multiple occassions only to be wrong time and time again. Jesus was King of kings and Lord of lords long before the 20th century since He has stood at the right hand of the Father since the beginning of time. You're way off in your estimates to say the least as validated in John 1:1-3 and please do not provide reference to the JW version since it is well documented that it is distorted. :bounce
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    just think if the early bible students had fallen asleep like christendom have ,they would be in the dark just the same as christendom are ,it is so good to see the light getting lighter and lighter in these last days, keeping awake is what jesus told his followers to do and some have done just that and Jesus has given them even more responsibily .
    Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings matthew 24;45-47
     
  18. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    The most popular view is a complete rejection of Darbyism. Virtually all of the rebuttals to a pre-tribulation rapture version of Darbyism also apply to post-trib and mid-trib versions. It uses the same basic isogesis of Scripture, has a similar history (shorter, actually), and so on.

    Read the passage more carefully. It is as "in the days of Noah." Those taken in Noah's day were taken into judgement, not delivered. Compare this with the parallell passage in Mt. 24.39: "taken" refers to judgement. Those who live, who are not destroyed, are the ones God delivers, not the ones He "takes" into judgement. Even in the passage you quoted, Christ is giving warnings on what to actually do when the day arrives: flee the field without looking back, abandon one's house, and so on. This makes absolutely no sense if they are to be taken out and not experience judgement.

    The only way to read this passage in support of the rapture is to actually assume it when you read it. If read without the assumption, with those of historical Christianity, it reads smoothly without a bump.
     
  19. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Not if you don't look for it when you read it. The passage reads smoothly and without incident if one reads it with historical Christian doctrine.
     
  20. angellous_evangellous

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    Great minds...
     
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