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The Secret Rapture

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TheTruthWillSetUFree, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. TheTruthWillSetUFree

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    There is a theological question that has disturbed millions of Christians and has lent untold doctrinal confusion to the modern religious world. That question revolves around the manner of Christ's coming back to this earth at the end of the world. Multitudes have been led to believe that Christ will return secretly. What about the so-called secret rapture? A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy and have been hopelessly confused. According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period take place.
    Where do you stand on this matter++++++++++++++++++++++++??Let me hear your thoughts on the matter.I'll will let you know my thoughts after a short discussion.

    Thank you,
     
  2. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    My belief is that it has already happened three times while most people were unaware.

    Muhammad came in 630 CE, then the Bab in 1844CE, and the Baha`u'llah (as promised by the Bab( in 1863 CE.

    Judgement, Rapture, 2nd, 3rd and 4th comings - pretty secret after all.

    "Let those who eyes, see and those who have ears, hear."

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  3. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I haven't really looked into The Rapture. I'm guessing it's in Revelations. Could someone please provide some scripture for this before I state an opinion?
     
  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I have very little respect for the rapture doctrine. It isn't in Scripture. In order to proof-text it, they have to make passages in the NT mean completely implausible things (such as in Mt. 24 where the one taken is taken in judgement not mercy, or Paul's "twinkling of an eye" phrase which refers to the Parousia of Christ). It's not just that the passages mean something different in context, because passages can, and often have, many different meanings. It's that the passages in question actually contradict the doctrine.

    It's not a part of any ancient Christian tradition either. It was unknown in the earliest days of the Christianity, the only time really with a chiliastic view. It was unknown especially after amillinnealism finally became the sole millinneal view due to chiliasm's flaws. Even when some of the Reformers resurrected chiliasm, they didn't create dispensationalism. It only came into existence when Margarat MacDonald came up with it and John Nelson Darby began teaching it to his apocalyptic sect in the 1830s.

    So, it doesn't have biblical support. It doesn't have a place in any tradition. We know when it was made up, and we know something about the dirty politics Darby used to cover it up. It seems to me that the doctrine has absolutely no grounds at all.
     
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  5. TheTruthWillSetUFree

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    Heres some BIBLICAL SUPPORT.
    Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time?
    Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God:
    Revelation 6:16, 17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
    Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
    1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
    Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
    Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him."
    Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
    Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)
    To say that the second coming of Christ to gather His saints will be secret, in view of these clear texts of Scripture, and in the absence of any text that even hints at His coming being secret, is to deny the Bible as the Word of God. In an attempt to uphold their contrived theory, the rapturists quote Matthew 24:40, 41 out of context. Notice this entire passage: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Matthew 24: 37-41. But as you can see,this is not what most the world believes.
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    i dont think it is secret , its just that the ones who are going to heaven will die, and then Jesus will resurrect them to a heavenly life but it is invisible to human eyes , just as Jesus being made king of Gods heavenlykingdom was invisible to human eyes ,but Gods people knew when it was going to happen because they stayed awake to bible prophecy and bible chronology ,its the same with those who are going to heaven with Jesus its invisible to human eyes, but it is no secret to Gods people
     
  7. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    The doctrine of the rapture has scriptural basis as referenced in Ist Thessalonians 4:16,17 which focuses on the second coming of Christ to rapture those who are saved in Christ (both dead and alive) to be united with the Lord in heaven. What subsequently follows is the tribulation period of seven years (3 1/2 years of peace, 3 1/2 years of tribulation and war) and the reign of the AntiChrist. Christ comes back again to destroy the AntiChrist and his forces and set up a kingdom on earth for a period of time (I believe 1000 years). The tribulation period and subsequent reign of Christ on earth is covered in the Book of Revelation as outlined by the Apostle John. :jiggy:
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Can you supply any reason not to interpret to interpret that passage as referring to the Second Coming of Christ, instead of some secret rapture that was unknown to all Christianity before the 1830s? In the context, Paul offers assurances that the resurrection is valid and the dead in Christ will surely rise (vv. 13-15), and the Apostle also asserts that the believers will be joined to the Lord while alive afterwards (vv. 15-17). He offers these as words of comfort that believers will be with the Lord always (vv. 17-18). Next, He continues His discussion about the Day of the Lord in chapter 5. He explains that the world is in the dark, and the judgement will come upon them suddenly (5.3), but the Christians will be aware beforehand and not caught in the dark (5.4). Ultimately, he these words are a comfort, because the Christians already suffering can look forward to the return of the Lord, while the others are appointed to judgement, (in the contrast in vv. 5.9-11).

    This is the traditional and well-nigh universal exegesis of this verse until the Plymouth Brethren came along and invented a new doctrine to read into it. There isn't any reason, in the context, to see some secret rapture before the rest of the world is plunged into tribulation, and worse still, nobody read it that way before the Darby and MacDonald started to.
     
  9. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I had a hunch it was something along these lines. Seeing as how I never came across it. Those passages that were presented sounds like they're reffering to the second coming of Christ. But I'm open to futher explanations :)
     
  10. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Paul stressed and assured believers in Chapter 5 that we would not have to endure the great tribulation period, but would be caught up to meet the Lord prior to that period commencing. There is no doubt that no one knows the day nor hour that the Lord will return, so it will come as a sudden event in the future and take the world by surprise because it will create great chaos and confusion as a result of it's impact. Paul wrote this epistle probably between the period of A.D. 40 and A.D. 70, so I can't speak for how this was intepreted previously, but this doctrine was being taught in the early centuries during and after Paul's life. :jiggy:
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    most of the little flock of 144,000 are already in heaven with Jesus in the heavenly kingdom . they were resurrected shortly after Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom in 1914 .there is only a remnent left on the earth now and they are all elderly .its all been happening and those who are awake have not missed it. thrilling times indeed
     
  12. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    What's your basis for this information. It certainly is not the Holy Bible, but more than likely the JW book that was written sometime in the 18th or 19th century, correct?
     
  13. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    Can you provide Pauls scripture for this? I'd like to read it.
     
  14. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    Ist Thessalonians, Chapters 4 and 5. :bounce
     
  15. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    I believe in a mid-tribulation resurrection, or rapture, of Christ's faithful and obedient followers.

    Those that are left behind, to face the second half of the tribulation and the wrath of the anti-Christ, will have a chance to be a part of the second resurrection, or rapture, if they repent, and turn to Christ, as their source of redemtption from this world.
     
  16. TheTruthWillSetUFree

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    Please Read This.It is very important that you understand what the BIBLE say's.

    The Second Chance
    Finally, the secret rapturists claim that during the tribulation those not raptured will be given another chance to be saved.
    Let it be categorically stated that nowhere does Scripture speak of a second chance, nor does the Bible anywhere speak of people being saved after Jesus comes. This is just another manmade doctrine that is indeed pleasing to the carnal heart of man. Actually, the Bible teaches the opposite. Notice these clear texts of Scripture:
    2 Corinthians 6:2 "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."
    Revelation 22:11, 12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me." (Evidently probation closes just prior to the second advent.)
    Jeremiah 8:20 "The harvest (day of second coming) is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
    When Jesus comes the second time, He carries "in his hand a sharp sickle." Revelation 14:14. This is the reaping time after sixty centuries of the sowing of the seeds of sin. This is the harvest time, and "the harvest is the end of the world." Matthew 13:39. "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Revelation 14:16. Truly did Jeremiah say, "The harvest is past ... and we are not saved." Jeremiah 8:20. There can be no saving after the reaping of earth's harvest at the coming of Christ.
    When Jesus and His holy angels appear, then "before him shall be gathered all nations." Matthew 25:32. There will only be two classes in that great company. The destiny of each has been set by what he did before the coming of Christ. Let us stand firm on the Word of God alone and reject these manmade, man-pleasing ideas that form the bulk of the whole secret rapture theory. As we have noticed, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will come the second time in glorious majesty to take His redeemed home with Him. It will be a personal, visible, and earth-shaking event that everyone alive will know about. The righteous will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), whereas the wicked will be slain by the brightness of that coming (2 Thessa-lonians 2:8). Let us carefully study our Bibles that we will not be deceived concerning this most important and wonderful hope, the second coming of Jesus
     
  17. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    I personally find the rapture to be a christian myth, but thats just my view.
     
  18. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    There will be a second resurrection, or rapture. Christ will save as many as want to be saved during the final tribulation.

    Christ came not into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
     
  19. TheTruthWillSetUFree

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    I should mention that when I explore these things, I venture on holy ground. I share the following study with confidence, but I also realize and respect that others may have a different interpretation.
    The Twelve Tribes
    Perhaps one of the first things we should ask is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. I don't want to be tedious, but to really understand this subject we should briefly review what the Bible says about the Old Testament tribes. First, there were actually 13 tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, who the Lord renamed Israel. But because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph. "Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons.
    One reason you still find only 12 tribes mentioned throughout the Bible is that after the Levites were chosen to be the priests for Israel, they were excluded from receiving a specific territory inheritance (Deuteronomy 10:8, 9; 18:1) and from census figures (Numbers 1:49). Instead, they were to spread out among all the tribes as teachers and priests.
    There are several reasons why the tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 can't possibly be literal Israelite tribes. The Old Testament reveals that 10 of the 12 tribes were carried away by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:6.
    History records that long before the time of Jesus, some of the 10 tribes returned to Samaria after intermarrying with the Assyrians. Their descendants, known as Samaritans, were hated by the Jews because they were no longer "pure" Israelites in blood or religion. In fact, because the 10 tribes have been so thoroughly scattered around the world and absorbed by their host nations, today a person would be hard pressed to find even one pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon-much less 12,000 of them!
    Another strong clue that Revelation is not speaking of the literal Israelite tribes is that in the Old Testament, the 12 tribes were very unequal in population numbers. Judah was very large, while Benjamin was very small. God divided the promised land in proportion to each tribe's needs. But the 144,000 is composed of 12,000 per tribe, right across the board. So who does make up this group? I believe the answer to this question lies in the fact that God's promises to literal Israel now apply to spiritual Israel. Since the year A.D. 34, the prophecies and attention of Scripture have focused on the children of faith-either Jew or Gentile. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit." Romans 2:28, 29. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29
     
  20. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I have a question...

    Given the mass dissappearance of Christians the world over...

    Who wouldn't believe the Bible? I mean some Christians have been going on and on and a rapture... it happens... and then people don't realize this and just go on thinking 'Hmmm, what a weird coincidince'?
     
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