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Featured The Second Coming Sham

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    After reading the thread that @Skwim recently made about this topic, I thought I would continue the discussion by offering an example of another verse that explicitly states that the second coming of Jesus will occur within the lifetimes of first century believers.

    Matthew 16:27-28:

    "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    So, there ya have it. The second coming of Jesus was predicted (by the supposedly infallible bible) to occur within the lifetimes of some of the people who were alive in Jesus' time. Yet, it obviously didn't occur, and still millions of Christians around the world actually believe that the second coming will still happen. Well, according to the bible, it was supposed to have already occurred a couple thousand years ago. So much for that.
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I would have to disagree. Your position would make sense if it is taken without looking at context as well as a multitude of other scriptures.

    Since Jesus said Acts 1:6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
    Mark 13:32 says, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

    So, if Jesus didn't even know times (general) or dates (specific), how could he say it was going to happen in that generation?

    Which then leaves the question about the statement in Matt 16, that you mentioned, which actually is recorded immediately after:

    Matt 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
    2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
    3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
    4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
    5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

    The three saw Him coming "in His Kingdom"... Fully God and fully man.

    Of course, if you want it to say something else violating the rest of the scriptures then nothing one says will change your position.

    But regardless of your position... he still will come :D
     
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    One can not know the exact date, but still give a reasonable estimate. That is what Jesus gave in the failed prophecy.
     
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  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    If one doesn't know... one doesn't know. I don't see where “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
    Mark 13:32 says, "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." translates into your viewpoint.
     
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  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    According to you Jesus is"fully God" as well as being man. But maybe he was just a man and that would explain why his prophecy failed. You can't have it both ways.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find that a lot of people stop reading at Matthew 16:28 instead of continuing to Matthew 17:9 because please notice that the transfiguration is a 'VISION' or a foregleam of what would take place in the future. Those few standing there were alive and saw in that 'VISION' Jesus coming glory time into his kingdom reign of Daniel 2:44.
    Continuing further to Matthew 25:31-33 is talking about the future ' glory time ' when there will be a coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth. Revelation's setting of Revelation 1:10 is for our day or time frame.
    Since Revelation and John's gospel account was Not written until the very end of the first century, then Revelation is Not directed to the first century but future.
     
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  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Each religion in the Abrahamic belief systems classically rejects the advent of a Messiah of the next religion, because they do not fit their interpretation of a cataclysmic, or apocalyptic arrival of the 'Promised One,' The Jews reject Jesus Christ on the grounds that he is apparently a failed rebel messianic figure that did not fulfill their expectations and they know the scriptures well in their own language and culture.

    I believe ithe greater answer may be found in the more universal progressive Revelation in the relationship between God, Creation and humanity. This a perspective not available to any of the ancient religions that reject all others, regardless, and consider theirs the only one rejecting all that follow.
     
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  8. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Jesus returned as he said. He appeared to many, and even Paul said he appeared to more than five hundred. Once becoming spirit he continued teaching. The Secret Books of James and John relates those teachings. As well as other non canon spiritual books.

    "Now the twelve disciples were sitting all together at the same time, and, remembering what the Savior had said to each one of them, whether secretly or openly, they were setting it down in books. And I was writing what was in my book - lo, the Savior appeared, after he had departed from us while we gazed at him. And five hundred and fifty days after he arose from the dead, we said to him: "Have you gone and departed from us?" -Secret James

    "I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive"- Secret James

    The Secret books are for those who have found the Spirit and understand. Jesus didn't use parables. Those who don't understand will reject them, as the orthodox catholics did. They do not follow the OT, but shows it's faults. They glorify the Gospels (only).
     
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me, a more progressive Revelation is between 'God and humanity' because we are nearing the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security" which will prove to be the precursor to the coming ' great tribulation' of Revelation 7:14. Then, Jesus, as Messiah and Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among person's of goodwill.
     
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  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    This is the problem of 'tunnel vision' of prophecy in ones own perspective. I prefer a broader more universal perspective of 'Progressive Revelation' involving the whole history of humanity in an evolving spiritual nature of humanity/
     
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje
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    Nice response in post #2 KenS. I agree up to this part of your statement, which is, of course the response of a trinitarian.

    If Jesus was "fully God and fully man", then surely there would be nothing that he did not, or could not know.
    How does one part of God keep another part of himself in the dark about anything? [​IMG]

    So true......

    As we near the time for that spectacular manifestation, (when no one will be able to deny him) Jesus is quietly dividing mankind on the issue of his Father's sovereignty. Some are flat out deniers of God, and some identify as followers of Christ, many in name only. From my perspective, as indicated in Matthew 7:21-23, there will be "many" who claim Jesus as their "Lord" at the judgment time, who will not be recognized by him as 'ever' being his disciples. I believe that the divide between those whom Jesus recognizes as his own, and those who think that they are 'close enough', (even claiming powerful works in Jesus' name) is something that they cannot come to terms with. They will plead their case, as if Jesus is somehow mistaken, (as if he could be) but he will reject them out of hand....but why?

    In reality, the "divide" (like the road to life) is much narrower than most people expect. The sovereignty of Jehovah, the Most High in all the Universe (Psalm 83:18 KJV) is what this life is all about. To give Jesus equal status with his God and Father is a breach of the first Commandment. We are to have NO other God but YHWH. There is not one scripture that identifies Jesus as YHWH.
     
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  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    I offer could not the story unfold in the verses that follow? Lets read them

    16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Then we move on where Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John (Some of them) up a high mountain.....

    17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    Thus could this not be the fulfilment of the above promise. After all they saw the past with Moses and Elijah, why not the future with the rest of the vision?

    Peace be upon you and all.
     
  13. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    But I do... :)
     
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  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Correct. And I'm OK with you viewing it differently. :)

    Good point, a question I had at the beginning.

    We come to that conclusion on multiple points...
    1. Phil 2:6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges ; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
    2. He would never have been tempted if He came with all of His divine privileges.
    3. He could not have been classified as the "second Adam"
    I believe there are other reasons but they would be subsets of above.

    .
    it is true that there will be some who claim Jesus as their Lord but Jesus will not know them. I tend to leave the "judging" to Jesus in as much as the Book of Life is sealed and no man reads it. It my view, it is more about the heart. There are many people who do things in the name of God or the name of the Lord but their hearts are far from God. Only God knows the heart.

    There is certainly enough scriptures to support my position. But I wouldn't argue about it since I am not the judge. Love is always a good response for "He that loveth not, knoweth not God for God is love".

    .
    I believe that YHWH is one! Man is spirit, soul and body... three in one but each part has a different purpose. I believe God is three in one, Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit.

    Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH - singular) our God (Elohyim - plural) is one LORD (singular)

    There are other reasons I believe that...
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Then you are only fooling yourself. You are also claiming that the Bible is not literally true in perhaps it's most important part.
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    If you say so. But only you know how you came to that conclusion.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, by reading your posts. Are you honest enough to own up to any of the obvious flaws in the Bible? If you will foolishly deny the easy ones there is no way that you can be honest about the flaws that threaten your beliefs.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Fallacy.
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, no fa
    Nope, no fallacy there. But you did manage to break the Ninth Commandment again. And you admitted not to be able to be honest about the Bible. Pretty amazing for a one word response.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    LOL... If you say so Subduction.

    Jesus loves you and I do too!

    :hugehug:
     
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