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The second coming of the messiah (Ahmadi Muslim)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by goraya15, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    I believe that the promised reformer, the Jesus of Christianity, The Krishna of Hindus, and the Mahdi of Muslims is all the same person, and he has already come in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. (Alislam.org)

    A little off-topic, but wut the heck. It seems that there aren't that many muslims on this site, at least none that i have met. Please refer to some if you can, or reply to this post.
     
  2. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    There are actually plenty. Just take your time and look around! :)
     
  3. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about.
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ** Moved to Religious Debates Forum **
     
  5. Natural Submission

    Natural Submission Active Member

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    About the Primordial Messiah coming in the form of Mirza, do you have any evidence for this?
     
  6. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Whyever not?
     
  7. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    It is my understanding that the messiah and imam Mahdi are to return at roughly the same time and will be separate individuals and will usher in the golden age. alislam.org has "Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani (1835-1908)" if this person died in 1908, i do not believe he was either of these prophesized individuals. if the website teaches this i would question their other material as well.
     
  8. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    actually Jesus has a lot to do with it.
     
  9. Natural Submission

    Natural Submission Active Member

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    Yes, you will know a tree by its fruits. Mirza simply didn't fulfill the prophecies the Messiah is said to fulfill so he could not be the Messiah.
     
  10. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    because...


    Jesus is lord of all.... the glory will he share with no other.

    God is not the author of confusion.:tsk:

    :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Yet you keep confusing us with your professed wisdom of god. Perhaps you need to seriously look at yourself.
     
  12. Doc

    Doc Space Chief

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    God is not the author of confusion, but perhaps one of the most confusing beings.
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    He is what he is, after all, and quite simply, that means a god who is all good and desires for evil to be obliterated, yet who rules a world where evil runs rampant. It's all so clear.
     
  14. almifkhar

    almifkhar Active Member

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    i think that if and or when the messiah comes back that the vast majority of humanity would see it. alot of them would sit here and say for sure that they would know but i just don't think so. as far as ahmadi muslim goes never heard of him, sorry
     
  15. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Did you know that the phrase "the second coming of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Nor the phrase "second coming"? Does this surprise you?

    Many good Christians are expecting the arrival of the Lord in this era as Jesus walking again over the face of the earth... in the flesh.

    But, is this really based in actual words of the Christ or is just hearsay?

    What Jesus did actually say?
    "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here [is] Christ; or, lo, [he is] there; believe [him] not:"... (Mark 13:21)

    "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not"... (Matthew 24:26)

    As you see, both of the allegories (the desert and the chambers), are instances of the same subject: The material world.

    In other words: The Messiah was not to be expected as a manifestation of Nature (an astronomic being, a majestuous creature floating in the sky, and so forth) nor as a human manifestation of any kind (a physical person, a visible event, etcetera, etcetera)...

    So... in which way should then the second arrival of the Christ was to took place?

    Just follow the leads:

    1 »»» "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... (Matthew 24:27)

    The Greek word for "coming" is parousia, and it means arrival, presence... obviously, Jesus is talking here to the next arrival of the Son of man...

    2 »»» "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"... (Matthew 24:30)

    Wait! Doesn't this mean that He actually be seen? Physically?

    Nope. The problem here is that this is not a physical, bodily coming of Christ. The idea of "seeing" here is a metaphor, not physically seeing but "to recognize, to be aware, to perceive" instead. The passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem that would cause the tribes of Israel to recognize that Jesus was indeed the Son of man and the Messiah.

    The clue here is not to mistake "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" with "the sign of the Son of man in the sky". The sky, is the firmament, and it belongs to the physical universe, not to the spiritual realm.

    Some would say that Acts 1:11 teaches a physical bodily second coming. Does it? Let's see.

    Some will argue that His ascension was physical and visible (Acts 1:9-10), so won't His return be also in such a way?

    In the KJV version it says in that verse that he will come in "like manner." The expression "like manner" is the English wording for the Greek phrase, "hon tropon". This phrase does not mean "exactly the same," but has the more general idea of "similar or in the liking."

    For example look at how this phrase is used in Luke 13:34: Did Jesus want to gather Jerusalem in exactly the same identical manner as (hon tropon) a hen gathers her chicks?

    The emphasis of Acts 1:11 is that Christ's coming (arrival or presence) would be in a cloud coming, just as he left in a cloud, so he would come in the cloud.

    There is no Scripture that explicitly teaches that Jesus would return or arrive again in a physical, bodily fashion. An understanding of the language of the Old Testament will help us see that His coming or arrival was not to be physical.

    If you run a extensive investigation of the Bible, you will find that there are not any verses in the New Testament that point to any other manner of coming other than a spiritual arrival of the Christ.

    And you will understand that The Second Coming is not an inspired phrase but a human expression...
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I have just now gone and learned about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. He was truly a wonderful man. Thank you so much for introducing him to me.

    Especially because it helps with a theory of mine. I was brought up Christian, several denominations, so what I understand about reincarnation has only come about through my search for the truth about God.

    OK, now, the spiritual law of prosperity says that when something comes back to us (evil/good deeds) it is multiplied, not equal to. We are told that if something is taken from us it means that God has something bigger and better for us. Wouldn't this also hold true for reincarnation. Is it possible that our spirit splits with each incarnation?

    This being said. Jesus was a man as well as the son of God. Could the prophecy of the second coming include the possibility that the person named Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is a part of the second coming. Was Ghandi of the same period? I have also heard that the Messiah had already returned in Mexico, between 1866 and 1950.

    "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... (Matthew 24:27)

    "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people"... (Isaiah 28:11)

    "...I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God"... (Hosea 2:23)






     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Woah....so the bible doesn't even really talk about Jesus coming again at all?! I mean, I know that it does, with scriptures such as, "You will not know the day, nor the hour", etc.,...but Jesus himself never said anything about it? Don't ancient scriptures predict that he will come a second time?

    I have some reading to do!!
     
  18. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    No religion, at least to my knowledge, has ever had 2 leaders that both lead the community in total harmony in respect to each other. Every strong community has one leader to guide. The imam and the messiah were the same people. Mirza Ghulam was the imam mahdi when he defended islam from mounting arguments from almost all other religions in the dark times of the 1800's. Only after when he recieved revelation from God that he was the promised messiah did he claim to be the messiah. Thus, your argument is partly correct. They both came at roughly the same time, just as the same person.
     
  19. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    what prophecies are you specifically talking about?
     
  20. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    Mattew's quote sounds about right, and also conveniently adds to my point as well :) . I believe this quote talks about how Mirza Ghulam Ahmad will illuminate the world spiritually. This is proven since he has founded a sect with has gone from a few hundred to several million in a short 100 years, and is continually growing.

    Isiah's quote also talks of another trait of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. "Whom shall he teach knowledge and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast" (Isaiah 28:9) Does this quote not speak of the followers of Muhammad, who after thousands of years after Muhammad lost their way from Islam? Since Muhammad came from Arabia, most of his early followers were of the Arabic tongue. Thus, during the last years of life, God granted Ghulam Ahmad with the knowledge of the Arabic language in one night. (alislam.org for more info.) With this knowledge, he was able to write books and speak to the Arabs about how he was the messiah they were waiting for.
     
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