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Featured The Scientific Math of the Milky Way

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Native, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Once again you use inappropriate terminology that puts the burden of proof on you. If you want to claim "assumption" you need to prove it. What they did was to draw a conclusion based upon evidence. Right now their conclusion is the only one supported by scientific evidence. They follow the scientific method. So far you have not. This is why I keep offering to discuss the basics with you. Until you understand the scientific method all you have is ranting and hand waving.
     
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  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    but seriously, that is all you have done.

    Answer me this one question:

    What reasonable test could possibly refute your concept?
     
  3. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    I don´t care what I use in this case! I just want you to consider what I´m writing but this seems to be much to much an effort to ask you for.

    And once again you just jumped the fences in order to avoid some serious questions and some sensible reply from you.

    I really cannot use your actual attitudes and arguments to anything at all.
     
  4. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    When you´ve answered my former question above which I´ve posted now several times.
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I have considered what you have written and have pointed out the flaws.

    What serious question have you ever asked? You just described a flaw of yours not mine. How many times have I asked you how you could refute your ideas? How many tests have you come up with?
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Nope, I asked that question of you a long time ago. It is your turn. And besides that I answered your poorly asked questions.

    Until you can answer my question you cannot by definition claim to have a scientific idea. That is at the very heart of this thread. Please note the title titled that you used.
     
  7. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    I give you up!
    You seem to be totally lost when somebody ask you a serious and simple question. All that you can is to repeat consensus assumptions without giving these a second thought, even when critical flaws of scientific metods are mentioned black on white.

    To me you are just a waste of time. From now on you can write anything you like and I´ll just ignore you.
     
  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    The galaxies themselves will likely merge. But there will be very few collisions between individual stars, for example. The spaces between stars is just too large for such collisions to be common.

    It is also quite unlikely that the black holes will merge, at least not for a significant amount of time after the collision of the galaxies. We do know of other galaxies with more than one black hole in them that probably came from such collisions. Eventually, though, they will gradually spiral closer to each other and merge, but that might take a few billion years.
     
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  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are projecting again. I am not the one that is totally lost here. The problem is that you appear to have a total lack of the scientific method and evidence. I offered to go over it with you and even offered to apologize if you by some strange chance I was wrong. Instead you only claimed to understand the scientific method and then go on to show that your understanding of it is highly questionable.

    I answered your poorly asked questions as well as they could be. You repeatedly run away from a simple question that you know shows that you lack a basic understanding of the scientific method.

    It would not take that long to learn. I have no clue as to why you refuse to even try.
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Response to post #80.

    Mound of mud? Now come and read what the Bible says, which was recorded by He who descended from the ends of this age, our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man' the MOST HIGH to have developed within the creation.

    Just as mankind, who appears to stand on the top rung of the ladder of evolution, developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, 'The Son of Man' according to our concept of one directional linear time, is still currently developing within the great androgynous expanding and pregnant body of Eve, whose child will be born to her Lord through great tribulation. And the child that she bears will be the justification for her continued existence.

    The second DAY [Period of universal activity] begins by bringing to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

    This is one scientific theory as to the creation of our solar system some 9 billion years after the creation of those first massive stars that lit up the darkness of the expanding space.

    Whether or not a better theory than that which we have today will develop, time will tell.

    This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the waters (cloud) above, from the waters (Cloud) below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

    It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

    The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

    Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago. The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

    Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps. Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6—9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form. Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

    As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and with a strong stellar wind, would blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed.

    By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

    Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

    This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

    Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

    Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

    Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy. It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

    These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago. At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

    According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:

    "And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

    The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:—firmament, but a primitive root; “רָקַע raqa` raw-kah” means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

    The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

    "And God said, “Let there be lights within the firmament or vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

    (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV) This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

    The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

    Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, “Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?” As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate. This subject will be discussed at a later stage.
     
    #90 The Anointed, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  11. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    Of course you haven´t :) It demands logical skills :)

    EDIT:
    Of course you haven´t :) It demands logical and analytically skills and independent thinking, which is why you are totally lost in our discussions :)
     
    #91 Native, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  12. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    This is just the myto-cosmological expression of "a beginning creation of firm matter".
    Personally I prefer not to describe anything cosmic with personified deities, but just with "cosmic forces and qualities". But I´m having no troubles understanding the deification in creation.
    I´m sure you know of creation stories from other cultures and several of these are IMO more specific and even better cosmologically explained than the biblical one, take for instants the Egyptian one, The Ogdoad.
    I think "the division of waters" can be discussed, but never mind for now. Otherwise I agree in your overall time shedule description of the Milky Way and Solar System formation.
    In this and in the next sentenses, you use different expressions from the modern science which I personlly wouldn´t. IMO this is a kind of pollution of the ancient story of creation and several of the modern expressions, as for instants "exploded" and "supernova" are IMO misconceptions based on the "gravity theory", which is a castrated perception of everything in the creation/formation as it just works with "the one way attraction" and "the other way explosion" instead of using the more logical electromagnetic qualities of magnetic attraction and repulsion as well as "electromagnetic charge and discharge, which is what happend when a star suddenly lightens up and become "super-nova". This is not an explosion but a simple discharge of electromagnetism.
    "Accretion" should IMO be exchanged with "magnetic attraction" which takes place in the plasmatic "watery" sphere. "Black hole" should be exchanged with "central Funnel of cosmic birth and rebirth".

    It is the very helical electromagnetic force in the "Let there be Light" which creates and provides the rotational momentum.
    I understand the process, but again, the "gravitational terms" pollutes the story IMO. The galactic disk is IMO formed by the perpendicual magnetic field wich runs in al electric currents. The "forming of clumps" doen´t happend via "gravitational coalision", but via electromagnetic binding of atoms and molecules.
    I agree in your description of the very process, but not with your gravitational terminology.

    - My interest in the Stories of Creation deals with the general and basic description of pre-conditions of the creation and the factrual creation of the Milky Way and the Solar System at large i.e. the very basics and not the specifics of the planetary formations, so for the moment I have no comment on the rest of your reply - (Which maybe would be better to swallow if posted in more sections)
     
    #92 Native, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So you believe that a sudden and massive discharge of energy, can not be classified as an explosion, am I correct?

    From the Universal dictionary: (EXPLOSION;) "A sudden rapid violent release of mechanical chemicals, or nuclear energy from a confined region."
     
    #93 The Anointed, Mar 4, 2019
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  14. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    The term dark matter is just a placeholder. We know it's there because of gravity. We don't know what exactly it is though.

    How Do We Know Dark Matter Exists? - Universe Today
     
  15. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    Yes :) Not in the meaning of the "gravitation theory" and teminology.. It´s a simple discharge of light and nothing more. In some so called "super-novaes", such discharges have happend several times in a row, which of course excludes the "gravtiational theory" explosion terminology of "super-nova".

    Of course such a discharge of light also fits your definition of "explosion" i.e. "a release of energy".
     
    #95 Native, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  16. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    Unless you are interested in discussion WHY the cosmological ghosts of "dark matter" appeared on the cosmological stages, I just ignore your reply.

    "WE" don´t KNOW anything about "dark matter" but we know something about the circumstantial conditions which falsely lead to the ASSUMPTION of "dark matter" by NOT using the electromagnetic force and qualities in the analysis of the galactric rotation curve problem.
     
    #96 Native, Mar 4, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  17. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    BTW regarding formation of heavier elements which falsely is assumed to take place in "super-nova" explosions:

    The formation of the heavier elements happens IMO in the galactic center where strong electromagnetic forces forms all natural elements on the nuclear bases, hence the strong radiation of gamma ray beams out from the galactic center on both planes of the disk.
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Native wrote...….. BTW regarding formation of heavier elements which falsely is assumed to take place in "super-nova" explosions:

    The Anointed…….And who made that false assumption? Certainly not I, who in multiple posts in this forum, have said that it was when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, etc, would be created.

    I hope you are not accusing me of assuming that the formation/creation of heaver elements took place in "super-nova" explosions”

    Native wrote...…. The formation of the heavier elements happens IMO in the galactic center where strong electromagnetic forces forms all natural elements on the nuclear bases, hence the strong radiation of gamma ray beams out from the galactic center on both planes of the disk.

    The Anointed…….. The Super Black Hole which is the centre of our galaxy, may swallow space material that it gathers to itself, but it is such a massive and so centrally condensed system that the force of gravity prevents everything within it, even light from escaping.

    How do you believe that Super Black Hole at the centre of our galaxy was formed if not from the super-nova explosion of a gigantic star, followed by its implosion crushing the remaining material beyond even that of a neutron star.

    Of course, our little star at the centre of our solar system, will one day explode out as a RED GIANT devouring the planets of it's system before collapsing in upon itself to form a white dwarf.

    Myths? Or attempts to explain the realities?

    Hesiod calls Zeus the son of Cronos=TIME and Rhea=SPACE and the brother of Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades and Poseidon, his five universal brothers and sisters, whose universal bodies were swallowed by Cronos=Time, while the developing godheads to those bodies were in the early stages of their development.

    After Zeus was Born, His mother Rhea=SPACE, hid him in a tunnel (Worm hole) and gave to Cronos=TIME a stone wrapped up in cloth which Cronos swallowed.

    “The stone swallowed by Cronos is none other than the ‘Philosopher’s Stone,’ the ‘Concealed Stone of many colours, (Golden Theatise) ‘the mystic seed’ of transcendental life which should invade, tinge, and wholly transmute the imperfect self into spiritual gold.”-----E.Underhill. Mysticism, P. 170.

    Isis and Osiris were not indigenous deities to Egypt but were introduced from the north. The cult of Isis has gone through many changes since the days of Abraham. Herodotus rightfully equates her with Demeter the sister wife of Zeus and mother of Dionysus whose body was torn to pieces by the Titans, then boiled in water, (The Flood) before being roasted in fire; (The end of this age, when heavenly fire incinerates all physical life-forms on this planet.)

    Zeus was the sixth child, “The Son of Man,” and Supreme personality of Godhead to have developed in the sixth day, or sixth period of universal activity, and born from the body of the most high that had developed in the sixth universal body, who was born to Time (Cronos) and Space (Rhea) and of the six universal children born to time and space, Zeus was the only child that wasn’t swallowed by Time shortly after the birth of their universal bodies.

    By a cunning device of Ge or Metis, Zeus made Cronos bring up the five previous universal children he had swallowed before those bodies were able to develop within them a Supreme Personality of Godhead.

    Isis was the Queen goddess who sat in the matrilineal throne of earth and she was the sister wife of Osiris, the God at the top of the stair case; the most high of the underworld with who she united after his death and who was the spiritual father of the God-child Horus, who was formed in her womb.

    Osiris the brother of the goddess Isis and the firstborn of five gods, which are the five universal bodies that Time was forced to bring up, by Zeus, or the five new made days= periods of universal activity.

    Osiris like Adam was the first man to be mummified and Osiris is the god of the first of the five new made days. Budge—Book of the Dead, p. 627, “O Osiris, son of Nut (Primeval matter), I have given unto thee the Sovereignty of thy father Seb (Time), and the goddess Mut (Space), thy mother, (Lord of Space and Time) who gave birth to the gods, brought you forth as the first born of five gods, and created thy beauties and fashioned thy members.”

    Like Zeus, Osiris was born of the union of Space (Mut=Rhea) and Time (Seb=Cronos) and created from Nut (The primordial elements in space or in Mut) by Amen (the soul; the activating and creative force of the universe, or the Logos).

    Isis was the most popular goddess from the time of Psamtik 1 (663-610 B.C) till the coming of Christianity, her cult appealed to the Greeks and Romans alike and when Egypt came under Roman rule, her cult spread through much of Europe. By the time of Jesus, the chief centre of her worship was in Rome. Isis is commonly depicted with Horus the child (Harpocrates) on her lap, and today, it is impossible to distinguish between the late pagan and early Christian figures of the mother and child, it’s almost as though the old Pagan Queen was stripped of her old garments and clothed with the new covering of Christianity.

    In the ancient religious stories, there are many Brother and Sister relationships, which resulted in the birth of a god-king, do you suppose that the indwelling ancestral spirit within the body of mankind, is trying to reveal something to us?

    Adam and his half-sister Eve.

    According to the Japanese creation myth the first man Izanagi, and his sister Izanami circled a gigantic phallic image before copulating and founding the family line that led to the present god-king Emperor of Japan.

    Zeus united with his sister Demeter who bore the godchild Dionysus.

    Osirus and his sister Isis who bore the godchild Horus.

    Joseph the son of Heli and his half-sister Mary, who bore the godchild Jesus, etc.

    Isaac is a prototype of Jesus and like Jesus, Isaac, the biological son of Abraham, was born of God’s promise according to the workings of the Holy Spirit. See Galations 4: 29; Amplified Version.

    Both Isaac and Jesus were the sons of parents who were both sired by the one Father. ‘Terah,’ is the father to both Abraham and Sarah, but from different mothers, while ‘Heli,’ (Alexandra Helios) is the father of both Joseph the son of Heli, and Mary his half-sister, and again, by different mothers.
     
  19. Native

    Native Natural Philosopher

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    I of course didn´t mean you here. This false assumption was/is made by the Standard cosmologists who have troubles explaining that the Sun cannot produce the heavier elements and then they falsely grabbed the invention of "super-novaes" in order to explain the formation of heavier elements via "cosmic explosions".
    It cannot be a surprise to you by now that I reject the funny idea of an empty hole which can be "massive and heavy and having a consensus gravitational force".

    It isn´t the hole which has any force at all but the entire formation is driven by electromagnetic forces and circuits which both can attract and repulse.
    As said in many ancient Stories of Creation: Rivers of gas and dust flows together via LIGHT = Electromagnetic forces, where the helical motion creates the cosmic swirls in galaxies - and the central hole is to be compared with earthly Hurricanes.
    I don´t believe in this consensus Standard Cosmology explanation too. To me it is pure guessworks.
    I´m very pleased to read your mythological and religious comments and explanations here, and I`ll like to know into which cosmological and astronomical context you connect the mentioned deities.
     
    #99 Native, Mar 5, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So what do you believe happens when our sun depletes on hydrogen, and it will?
     
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