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The Science of Miracles

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Ostronomos, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. Ostronomos

    Ostronomos Active Member

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    The structural integrity of your body is controlled by the spiritual function. Reality is simulating itself. In order to coherently self-configure it needs to do so. Therefore, the spiritual function can cause medical miracles to occur.
     
  2. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Deepak, is that you again?

    Random Deepak Chopra Quote Generator
     
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  3. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    Your post is almost a deductive argument, but I'm not quite seeing it work.

    Premise 1: The structural integrity of your body is controlled by the spiritual function.

    Premise 2: In order to coherently self-configure, reality must simulate itself.

    Premise 3: Reality is simulating itself.

    Conclusion: Therefore, the spiritual function can cause medical miracles.

    You've got some big problems. First, you need to define "structural integrity," "spiritual function," "self-configuration," "reality," "simulate," and "medical miracle." I don't understand how you're using these terms.

    A deductive argument must have sound premises and a valid structure to be accepted. Based on my current understanding of these terms, your premises seem unsound. Also, since miracles are mentioned nowhere but in your conclusion, your argument is poorly structured and is invalid.

    In my experience, all miraculous claims I've ever heard are examples a logical fallacy called the "argument from ignorance." Namely, "I don't know the explanation for X. If a thing G existed, then by definition it could sufficiently explain X. Therefore X is evidence for G."

    The problem with this fallacy is that it can be used to support any imaginary conclusion. For example. We see trees growing but I don't know how that works. I propose there are invisible magical turtles that cause trees to grow. We see trees growing, therefore invisible magical tree-growing turtles exist. I think you can get an inkling of why this argument doesn't shed light on what is true or real. The same is true for miracle claims.

    A miracle claim can be broken into two separate claims:
    1. A thing happened, X.
    2. The thing that caused X to happen is G.

    For 1, the actual event is very hard to establish, and usually when investigated the claim of what actually occurred is shown to be false, or impossible to verify. For example, someone's "pain felt better" or "Mary appeared in the clouds."

    For 2, there is never any evidence to tether the causation of X by G, or that G in fact demonstrably exists. There is where the argument from ignorance comes in. "I don't know what it could be, so it must be god." In fact, we should stop at "I don't know what it could be." That is the honest conclusion. The fact that scientists and curious thinkers throughout the ages have not settled for "so it must be god" is why we have computers, phones, airplanes, rockets, medicine, and so much more technology today.
     
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  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    it-looks-like-bullshit-from-this-angle-too-imgtlip-com-36-47439848.jpg
     
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  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    Well this medical miracles do occur. I'm thinking prana energy and cellular healing are involved.

    Consciousness simulating reality is another interesting thought in the OP that has some merit in my school of thought.
     
  6. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Sorry, two totally false statements, followed by a meaningless one, cannot possibly lead to anything like a "therefore" moment.

    Oh, wait -- "reality is simulating itself." Maybe, maybe it just looks false. Let's see, if reality is a simulator, then what it must be doing is simulating a simulator which leads to ... madness, I suspect.
     
  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    If you think you know what's involved, they're not miracles by definition. Plenty of actual medical treatments could be called miracles if we didn't bother to understand how they actually work.
     
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  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Made me think of

    H2x1_NSwitchDS_HereBeDragons.jpg
     
  9. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    Well for my colloquial use of the word 'miracle', a non-physical entity using super-physical prana energy (not accepted by current science) to cure cancer would be something I would call a miracle.

    Ultimately I believe all miracles do have explanations but include super-physical elements not currently understood by science.
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    ... so you don't feel any obligation to work towards making it "accepted by current science".

    I find the use of the word miracle in this context is an evasion. It isn't just presenting something that isn't yet understood, it's presenting something that never needs to be understood. You just want to be able to assert it as true without any evidence.

    (Nothing personal, you're far from alone)
     
  11. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    You misunderstand me. I want everything that is real to be part of science including events we now call miracles.

    However with the tools currently available to science a full understanding must wait. In the meantime we have (so-called) miracles as real world evidence of the still dramatic incompleteness of our science. I think breakthroughs will come when science can peer into other dimensions and realms of reality but I am not holding my breath in my lifetime.

    Yes maybe in a couple centuries what we call 'miracles' now will have a scientific explanation.

    In the meantime in addition to science I consider other wisdom traditions I respect (like Vedic/Hindu and Theosophical) in my understanding of the grander reality. These traditions involve psychic/clairvoyant senses that perceive things that physical instruments at this time cannot and which are beyond our three-dimensional physical world.
     
    #11 George-ananda, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  12. Ostronomos

    Ostronomos Active Member

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    I do grant that the argument is poorly structured but that does not necessarily mean that its reality is invalid.

    Please do not conclude that it is necessarily false as I am still fleshing out a rough picture of the explanation. To be developed at a later date (guaranteed).


    Thank you for your insightful analogy but again, you are drawing premature conclusions based on its lack of completeness.

    Yes. Thank you.

    Okay, but ultimately those are not the biggest most unanswerable questions. The biggest most unanswerable question is God.
     
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  13. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I hope my comments gave you some things to consider.

    For me, I do not accept a claim until there is specific evidence for that claim that tethers it to reality. There is no value in evidence that is consistent with it being true, or that is sufficiently explained by the claim. You need something that supports your claim specifically, to the exclusion of all others.

    If something can't be shown to be impossible, then I don't conclude it's possible. If an argument is incomplete, not necessarily false, or still roughly formed, then I don't accept it. You've got your work cut out for you, because I've never seen a miracle claim get off the ground when it comes to my standard of evidence, which is roughly identical to the standards for science. Science has yielded obvious results. So far, miracles have not, nor can they even be demonstrated to happen, nor can their supernatural cause be identified and linked to the claimed event.
     
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  14. Yazata

    Yazata Active Member

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    The what?? That is going to need a lot more discussion, definition and justification if this is to be a philosophical discussion and not just you testifying to your own faith. You need to start out by clarifying what you mean when you use the phrase "the spiritual function". Especially seeing as how it's the only thing in your post that might arguably support your conclusion about "medical miracles"

    I don't have a clue what that means. That parts of reality include representations of other parts? (Books, photographs etc.?)

    What does "coherently self-configure" mean? Why is this (whatever it is) supposedly necessary?

    How does that follow from anything besides the first sentence?
     
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