• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The sacredness of the human person (About the abortion issue)

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
sacredfetus.jpg


The sacredness of the human person

“I wish to restate as firmly as I can that abortion is a grave sin, since it puts an end to an innocent life. In the same way, however, I can and must [state] that there is no sin that God’s mercy cannot reach and wipe away when it finds a repentant heart seeking to be reconciled with the Father.” (Apostolic Letter, 2016)

++++++++++

A sin is an act of self-destruction. Something that lessens our humanity, which I believe as a Christian, Jesus calls us all to, a fuller, freer, more loving humanity. I would say that Jesus shows us the way, by the manner in which he lived and related to those around him. He had compassion, deep empathy, spoke gently to those who struggle, and yes fail. He says that God will forgive 70 X 7 times a day. God is not the issue, nor God’s love, nor God’s will for what is best for humankind. It is our short-sightedness that is the problem. I understand this since many times I have failed to live out what I know I am called to do.

Abortion is the termination of a life, and the legality of when that can happen is arbitrary and changing over time. Now an abortion can be procured at 24 weeks. Or with a doctor’s ok, it can happen right up the time of birth. Which is in reality ‘infanticide’. That is where we are going with this. Or even beyond. It can’t be stopped, everything evolves, matures, and bears fruit.

To want to protect life in the womb does not mean that concern for life after birth is somehow weaker. Many pro-lifers walk their talk and adopt, often more than one infant in order to save it from being aborted. Many counsel women, gently, who are trying to make a choice to abort or not.

Many pro-lifers counsel women after they have an abortion and lead them into healing. Why? Because all life matters, all people matter, all are loved by God, and God’s wills their salvation and healing if they seek it.

Just because I am pro-life does not mean I am for Trump. I identify with neither party. Both have grown old and corrupt. I doubt any party really cares about people, just about power. The constant squabbling at the expense of the country points to that. I know that there must be some honest politicians out there, but I believe they are rare. To be fair, if I was in politics, I doubt I would stay honest either, power and money do corrupt.

I do believe that arguing over this is a waste of time. I also respect those who do not agree with me, even though I believe they are mistaken, just as they believe that I am.

The Catholic Church is not perfect, far from it. Our scandals or out there for all to see, and I am glad for that. The truth will set us free. I also believe that on the teaching level, the church is one of the few voices that seek to defend the sacredness of life in the womb and the sinfulness of ending such a life.

Abortion will not go away, yet I do believe that someone should speak out for the civil rights of the unborn, few do, the life in the womb is helpless against abortion. Family, and peer pressure, and men not taking responsibility for their children, and the simple fear of survival are big factors for many women to decide to get an abortion. They need our compassion, love, and yes, acceptance so that they can find healing.

Yes, I know that that is not true for all women who get abortions. In 2016 some women got up during the democratic convention and actually bragged about getting an abortion for career reasons, so there is a continuum when it comes to this issue. There is always a backstory, unknowns, that keeps me from judging in a matter that is way beyond my pay-grade.

When listening too many who are pro-choice, I find that we have a lot in common. Many, perhaps the vast majority, do have reverence for life but do not really see the issue of civil rights for the unborn important, not out of a bad will, it is just off their radar.

So I am pro-life, abortion for me is murder since life is being ended. I say that in sorrow, not in anger, or in condemnation to those who disagree. The Lord has freed me from the need to judge, a terrible burden, and I often, sin when I fail and do judge others. I can pray for all, and I do believe that prayer is important, though I know that many will not understand that way of thinking.

I do wish that we the people would stop thinking that if only we had so and so in the White House everything would get better. No, not true, we are doing it to ourselves. How we relate, listen, and either love or hate one another is the true culprit. Yet I am hopeful for all of us.

We are at a crossroad, which way we go will have enormous consequences for all of us.-Br.MD
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
When listening too many who are pro-choice, I find that we have a lot in common. Many, perhaps the vast majority, do have reverence for life but do not really see the issue of civil rights for the unborn important, not out of a bad will, it is just off their radar.

In a way the label pro-choice is a misnomer, as it is in favor of the legal right to abortion.

I do wish that we the people would stop thinking that if only we had so and so in the White House everything would get better.

I think there is certainly a difference as far as which party better serves the context of social justice outside of a single issue.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I think there is certainly a difference as far as which party better serves the context of social justice outside of a single issue.

There's luxuries and there's the basic right to live... How can you justify preferring the former over the latter?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
There's luxuries and there's the basic right to live... How can you justify preferring the former over the latter?

The right to food, housing, clothing, healthcare, a just wage, these are not a luxuries, they are basic human needs. And the vulnerable are not only the unborn but are with us from conception until death. Pro-life is all life, not a single issue.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
The right to food, housing, clothing, healthcare, a just wage, these are not a luxuries, they are basic human needs. And the vulnerable are not only the unborn but are with us from conception until death. Pro-life is all life, not a single issue.

I don't know how you can say these aren't luxuries when nobody is dying from malnutrition, or any of these things in the United States. This is first-world entitlement stuff.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I don't know how you can say these aren't luxuries when nobody is dying from malnutrition, or any of these things in the United States. This is first-world entitlement stuff.

They are 'entitlement' only as long as those in power say they are. And where do you think the difference in the parties come into the question?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
They are 'entitlement' only as long as those in power say they are. And where do you think the difference in the parties come into the question?

It's just that when you claim these things are "pro-life", that insinuates that death is the alternative. Rather it's higher quality of life you're aligning with an actual life or death scenario. I don't think that's fair.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
It's just that when you claim these things are "pro-life", that insinuates that death is the alternative. Rather it's higher quality of life you're aligning with an actual life or death scenario. I don't think that's fair.

I am as opposed to abortion as you are. But it is not the only issue.
Yes, abortion is a preeminent life issue. So too, poverty, homelessness, education, immigration, stem-cell research, the commodification of babies, religious liberty, human trafficking, the death penalty, racism, assisted suicide and the environment are also important life issues. These are issues that go to the very heart of the dignity of the human person, the common good and human flourishing.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I am as opposed to abortion as you are. But it is not the only issue.
Yes, abortion is a preeminent life issue. So too, poverty, homelessness, education, immigration, stem-cell research, the commodification of babies, religious liberty, human trafficking, the death penalty, racism, assisted suicide and the environment are also important life issues. These are issues that go to the very heart of the dignity of the human person, the common good and human flourishing.

But they're not "pro-life" issues (with the exception of the death penalty and assisted suicide -- those are)...

I don't see how education, for example, can be categorized as "pro-life".
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
But they're not "pro-life" issues (with the exception of the death penalty and assisted suicide -- those are)...

The Church would disagree.

I don't see how education, for example, can be categorized as "pro-life".

Its a way out of the unbroken chain of poverty.
"Taking care of life requires that it be done throughout life and to the end. It also demands that attention be paid to living conditions:health, education, job opportunities, and so on; in short, anything that allows a person to live in a dignified way." Pope Francis

245. The situation of a vast number of the world's children is far from being satisfactory, due to the lack of favourable conditions for their integral development despite the existence of a specific international juridical instrument for protecting their rights[557], an instrument that is binding on practically all members of the international community. These are conditions connected with the lack of health care, or adequate food supply, little or no possibility of receiving a minimum of academic formation or inadequate shelter.
A los miembros del Consejo directivo del Movimiento por la Vida italiano (2 de febrero de 2019) | Francisco

We will continue to disagree, but each must be guided by conscience.
 

GardenLady

Active Member
There are issues that are life and death besides abortion. Lying to the people about a pandemic and undermining science and medical advice has absolutely lead to deaths. Failure to provide health coverage for all people has certainly lead to deaths. I have heard people say “they can go to an emergency room if they are sick.” ERs don’t do mammograms or colonoscopies or routine A1C tests or prostate exams, and people die from lack of these. Someone is likely dying because of that as I type this.

IMHO, it is not the law that is the problem. It is inability to persuade. Yet even among those who claim the mantle of “pro-life,’ different choices are sometimes made when it’s their daughter who turns up pregnant.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
The Church would disagree.

Pro-Life, whether we like it or not.....is a political term first and not a theological one. The idea of extending it comes from the secular left (George Carlin often joked about it) and later borrowed from the Catholic left and others.

This sort of reminds me of "All lives matter" as a ploy to distract from "Blacks Lives Matter". Of course all lives matter, but you don't have to support BLM and still understand there is a problem.

In the same way that one can support the Pro-Life movement and understand there exist a problem in the right. One issue voting is a silly caricature. Of course kids in cages matter. Of course healthcare matters. The idea that it doesn't is an unfortunate result of a disagreement on what to do about it.
 
Top