The Russia question!

[Revoltingest]

I suspect you are correct. I'm seeing people sympathetic to Putin and trying to subtly justify the invasion.

A friend who has relations in Ukraine
has never heard of of Russian speakers
being oppressed. His significant other
is a Russian speaker there.

 

[F1fan]

Given we had several regimes, all practicing offshoots of the same, explicitly violent Marxist-Leninist ideology that had a particularly callous approach to individual human life vis-a-vis "progress", that were all massive outliers in terms of deadliness, it would be somewhat curious to absolve said ideology of any blame and instead put it down to pure coincidence would it not?

I take it you never read the Communist Manifesto. Marx was not violent. His book was oddly rational, but way too idealistic to ever work. Marxism has one major flaw, and that is not accounting for human failings like greed and ego.

But Lenin was a revolutionary and that does tend to be violent.

European nations had their own debates and their own intelligence services. They weren't dependent on US domestic politicians to tell them about their own continent.

The USA has always had the advantage of isolation, so could afford to be more aggressive and reckless in political rhetoric against the Eastern Bloc. But I think you underestimate the ties and cooperation between the political and military alliance between the USA and Europe. Europe was able to grow and expand economically after WW2 due to most of the money they had being invested back into rebuilding. Look how Germany has vowed to invest more in military since it has been complacent in reliance on the collective of NATO defense. No wonder they have healthcare and the USA does not.

 

[F1fan]

A friend who has relations in Ukraine
has never heard of of Russian speakers
being oppressed. His significant other
is a Russian speaker there.

You have to wonder if the vast majority of Russian speakers in the Donbas regions would prefer there to have been the pro-Russian uprising since 2014 versus peace. I can't see war and destruction being worth the feelings of being a Russian in Ukraine.

 

[Spiderman]

I suspect you are correct. I'm seeing people sympathetic to Putin and trying to subtly justify the invasion.

The invasion is heartbreaking, ugly, uncalled for, and disgusting.

I would never dare justify something causing so much heartache, death, injuries, suffering, and hell, to accomplish nothing.

I simply said our supplying weapons to Ukraine, which I have read killed a lot of Russians, provoked Putin.

I confess, I don't know a lot about modern Ukrainian history, just a few things I read and heard, but I'm the first to admit, it isn't a country I know very much about.

That is nothing remotely close to me justifying the invasion, because I would never do that, and I find this war extremely stupid, it could escalate, could reach nuclear attacks (not outside of the realm of impossibility, maybe even not unlikely, I didn't think Putin would invade in the first place, so he's dangerous with his nuclear weapon rhetoric, and he has many of those weapons).

The invasion of Ukraine is terrible. I would never justify such a move!

 

[Revoltingest]

You have to wonder if the vast majority of Russian speakers in the Donbas regions would prefer there to have been the pro-Russian uprising since 2014 versus peace. I can't see war and destruction being worth the feelings of being a Russian in Ukraine.

Aye, despite claims by a particular poster here,
Putin does indeed lie. His propaganda is utterly
despicable.....& deadly.

 

[Revoltingest]

I simply said our supplying weapons to Ukraine, which I have read killed a lot of Russians, provoked Putin.

But is he really being provoked, or is this what he
says because he's manipulating the fears of NATO
countries regarding escalation to nuclear war?
It likely also serves domestic politics by portraying
Russia as seeking righteous vengeance for Russia
being the victim facing existential threats. Remmber
that the major Christian church there is fanning these
flames of war, ie, Russian is doing God's work.

We've seen military sources in Russian & Belarus
speak of plans to also invade Moldova & Latvia.
Russia might also try to invade Finland again,
particularly now that Fins consider joining NATO.
So giving into Russian military adventurism now
portends encouraging further conquest.

 

[Spiderman]

A friend who has relations in Ukraine
has never heard of of Russian speakers
being oppressed. His significant other
is a Russian speaker there.

Fine, I read a bad source that said thousands of Russians have been violently killed by Ukrainian governments, since the fall of the Soviet Union.

If I read bad sources, I apologize for parroting falsehoods. It was an accident!

I'm against Putin's invasion of Ukraine firmly. I'm also against Ukraine killing Russians in Ukraine, prior to the invasion IF those claims are true.

I guess I don't know who to believe sometimes, because I think American media is sick, and don't trust it.

But the invasion of Ukraine, I firmly condemn, and think it is heartbreaking, and could escalate into the worst global crisis since I was born!

 

[F1fan]

The invasion is heartbreaking, ugly, uncalled for, and disgusting.

I would never dare justify something causing so much heartache, death, injuries, suffering, and hell, to accomplish nothing.

I simply said our supplying weapons to Ukraine, which I have read killed a lot of Russians, provoked Putin.

Then it was a no-win situation. Putin has made it known he wants Ukraine back under his control, and he can't do it democratically. War was the only other option. And a sovereign nation has the right to defend itself from a maniac like Putin.

Let's note that mature people are self-aware enough to know when they are being provoked, and reel in their emotions to not make a stupid error of judgment. Putin obviously lacks this ability. This is why authoritarians are not fit for leadership.

I confess, I don't know a lot about modern Ukrainian history, just a few things I read and heard, but I'm the first to admit, it isn't a country I know very much about.

That is true for most of us. If not for trump's attempt to exploit Ukraine, and Manifort's and Giuliani's corrupt acts in Ukraine, we would not know much about what's going on there. Trump being elected might have made things inevitable as Putin had an ally in the USA to influence our policies in regards to Ukraine. Had Clinton won it's arguable that the war never happened.

That is nothing remotely close to me justifying the invasion, because I would never do that, and I find this war extremely stupid, it could escalate, could reach nuclear attacks (not outside of the realm of impossibility, maybe even not unlikely, I didn't think Putin would invade in the first place, so he's dangerous with his nuclear weapon rhetoric, and he has many of those weapons).

The invasion of Ukraine is terrible. I would never justify such a move!

I did not expect Putin to invade either. We are finding out he is isolated and not well informed as a leader DUE to his brutal leadership style. This illustrates why authoritarians are egomaniacs and not fit for leadership. Nations need mature and thoughtful leaders for the planet to remain at peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

I guess I don't know who to believe sometimes, because I think American media is sick, and don't trust it.

Certainly don't trust Russian media, or those of Russian
allies/enablers, eg, Italy, China, India. Ameristanian
media have multiple independent competing sources,
which aren't under government control (as they are in
Putin's Russia). You also have the BBC, whose coverage
I find most cromulent & useful.

 

[Spiderman]

Then it was a no-win situation. Putin has made it known he wants Ukraine back under his control, and he can't do it democratically. War was the only other option. And a sovereign nation has the right to defend itself from a maniac like Putin.

Let's note that mature people are self-aware enough to know when they are being provoked, and reel in their emotions to not make a stupid error of judgment. Putin obviously lacks this ability. This is why authoritarians are not fit for leadership.


That is true for most of us. If not for trump's attempt to exploit Ukraine, and Manifort's and Giuliani's corrupt acts in Ukraine, we would not know much about what's going on there. Trump being elected might have made things inevitable as Putin had an ally in the USA to influence our policies in regards to Ukraine. Had Clinton won it's arguable that the war never happened.


I did not expect Putin to invade either. We are finding out he is isolated and not well informed as a leader DUE to his brutal leadership style. This illustrates why authoritarians are egomaniacs and not fit for leadership. Nations need mature and thoughtful leaders for the planet to remain at peace.

Well than I find it very sad. Putin is obviously an unhappy human being or he wouldn't be doing that, because nobody wakes up in the morning feeling so good they want to hurt or bully people.

People that do that are filled with darkness and unhappy.

Ukrainians are losing loved ones, homes, pets, and many permanently disabled, paralyzed, burned, disfigured, handicapped, and their dreams stolen forever over this.

The same is happening to Russian boys who are following orders , returning home in a body bag to a weeping mother , and they believe what they are told, what I was told, that thousands of Russians are persecuted, suffering, and violently murdered in the Ukraine, since the fall of the Soviet Union.

I believe many good young men fighting for Russia, are just as good of people, as the Americans fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

They believed they were fighting and laying down their lives to stop terrorism.

Putin compared Ukraine to a Nazi Dictatorship, and that is probably what Russian soldiers believe they are fighting, are Nazis, because their leader and media is telling them that.

American soldiers invaded Iraq and Afghanistan and occupied it, bombing civilians, and it wasn't a just war, and we believed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction!

But our soldiers were not as a general rule evil bad guys. I believe the same is true of the Russian soldiers. They probably believe they are liberating persecuted Russians in a "Nazi" Ukraine.

So, I see good guys killing good guys honestly, because most of Russia now is family oriented Christian people with high moral standards, despite the things that the government is feeding the people.

Good guys in the Russian forces does not mean I support the invasion. It is sad, disturbing, insane, depressing, and could be the beginning of the worst crisis I witness while I am on this planet, with how many nuclear weapons Putin has.

This is EXTREMELY sad!

 

[Spiderman]

Certainly don't trust Russian media, or those of Russian
allies/enablers, eg, Italy, China, India. Ameristanian
media have multiple independent competing sources,
which aren't under government control (as they are in
Putin's Russia). You also have the BBC, whose coverage
I find most cromulent & useful.

Got it!

 

[Stevicus]

Given we had several regimes, all practicing offshoots of the same, explicitly violent Marxist-Leninist ideology that had a particularly callous approach to individual human life vis-a-vis "progress", that were all massive outliers in terms of deadliness, it would be somewhat curious to absolve said ideology of any blame and instead put it down to pure coincidence would it not?

Would you also absolve fascism and its offshoots of responsibility for the brutal nature of fascist regimes?

I didn't "absolve" anyone. I just don't agree with superficial explanations for complex historical events.

If we're looking for simple explanations, then human nature is likely the cause. Humans are a violent species; it's an integral part of our species for as long as history has recorded. Violence begets violence. If capitalists are violent to their workers, then the workers will fight back.

Is it really that difficult for you to figure these things out, or is your ability to understand limited by the lens of political propagandists?

European nations had their own debates and their own intelligence services. They weren't dependent on US domestic politicians to tell them about their own continent.

They joined NATO, didn't they?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Has Nazism morphed into Putinism? Apart from the Jewish part of course. And quite laughable given that he targets others as being actual Nazis.

Given that many will see Putin's actions towards the Ukraine and many other bordering countries much the same as what Hitler did. This being, a rather transparent claim as to 'protecting Russian speakers' whilst forever trying to expand Russia itself, into something greater or as to how they (Putin and his cronies) perceive their historic rights - the USSR being one longed for dream no doubt. And are they headed for the same downfall - being somewhat ironic, given that the USSR played such a large role in defeating the Nazis?

 

[Augustus]

If we're looking for simple explanations, then human nature is likely the cause. Humans are a violent species; it's an integral part of our species for as long as history has recorded. Violence begets violence. If capitalists are violent to their workers, then the workers will fight back.

Of course humans are a violent species, and there are many factors that can lead to violence. But it's true that some societies are more violent than others, and 20th C communist societies were unusually violent towards their own citizens.

Moreover, this was completely in line with their stated ideology which provided complex justifications for why such violence and oppression was moral.

Hence it is reasonable to reach the conclusion that their unusual levels of violence had something to do with the violent, millenarian ideology they promoted.

Doubly so when we look at the combined track record of all violent, millenarian ideologies and their tendency towards justifying extreme violence.

We can't really blame "capitalist oppression" for the Khmer Rouge wanting to eradicate the educated middle class, most of whom were just workers for someone else anyway.

Is it really that difficult for you to figure these things out, or is your ability to understand limited by the lens of political propagandists?

Why would it require one to be fooled by "political propaganda" by comparing the actions of a regime to their stated ideological beliefs?

There are many reasons why the Nazis and ISIS were successful and popular too and plenty of blame to go around. But, I'm not going to pretend their ideologies didn't make a bad situation much worse.