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The roles of fear and loneliness

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Most of us have probably met at some point appeals for adopting what is presented as the proper beliefs to take us away from some form of undesirable result.

I have come to feel that there is a fundamental significance to that motivation when it is present in religious practice. Perhaps it taps into deep cravings for certainty and support, when we find ourselves faced with a largely indifferent world that all too often tosses us towards situations which we can neither understand nor confortably process.

Unfortunately, that is not a healthy motivation. The anxieties are real enough, but they must be addressed at the proper level - very often, a concrete, "street" level.

Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy. It leads to subtle yet powerful and very harmful forms of slavery and alienation.

Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presentes itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It can be hard in practice, and social support is very much needed, at least when one is not all that settled in the first place. But it is a very worthwhile perspective, and one that pays itself many times over even from the first few steps.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Most of us have probably met at some point appeals for adopting what is presented as the proper beliefs to take us away from some form of undesirable result.

I have come to feel that there is a fundamental significance to that motivation when it is present in religious practice. Perhaps it taps into deep cravings for certainty and support, when we find ourselves faced with a largely indifferent world that all too often tosses us towards situations which we can neither understand nor confortably process.

Unfortunately, that is not a healthy motivation. The anxieties are real enough, but they must be addressed at the proper level - very often, a concrete, "street" level.

Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy. It leads to subtle yet powerful and very harmful forms of slavery and alienation.

Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presentes itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It can be hard in practice, and social support is very much needed, at least when one is not all that settled in the first place. But it is a very worthwhile perspective, and one that pays itself many times over even from the first few steps.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?
"Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy"
I agree with the points mentioned by one colored in magenta above.
I have to add that the situation could be improved with continuous education, effort and praying to G-d humbly and fervently. Please
Regards
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
...Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presents itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?

Namaste, Luis
A thoughtful post and with your implied consent by asking for comments, I'd like to cherry pick it. I'm not one much, either, for postponing the very real potential for experiencing joy here and now vs. setting my mind or whatever faculty or faculties consorting with each other agree to get me on the "hope" train. Without expectation or hope, once cannot experience the downer known as disappointment. One has to give up that seesaw altogether or consent to go up and down... a lot. You didn't really say much about fear, but I have for myself concluded forever and ever that the object or thought or whatever which causes my fear is not the "enemy." Fear itself is.

The first paragraph quoted above is indeed a constructive posture to take for an embodied being, irrespective of the motive for doing so. Interesting choice of word "virtues" for describing what are basically considered practices (sadhana) in Hinduism, the motives for doing which are known. For some others, the motive for adopting the posture you describe will be to process in a satisfying manner (to that individual, which is all that matters) the reality you speak of, a reality, however, which sounds to be dealing with strictly the mundane, i.e., the news delivered by sensory input, interpreted by intellect and then modified by ego to suit.

The second paragraph is the one which prompted me to write. I've read other posts of yours and think I understand that you take a rational (vs. abstract) approach to your realizations. So, rationally speaking, if you can categorically say that certain questions can't be answered (e.g., is there a deity or afterlife?), when you say that, is that not the equivalent of saying you have all the answers? But I think you would never out and out assert that, would you? It just sort of crept in?

The reason I bring it up is to point out the problem with accepting as truth only that which has scientific proof to substantiate it, the "it-doesn't-exist-if-I-can't-perceive-and-measure-it-with-my-senses argument. It's because deity, the divine, superconsciousness--none of these are perceived by the ordinary senses operating during ordinary waking consciousness.

Until one has experienced that transcendence of senses, at least once, there simply is NO WAY the news of that experience can be understood by one who hasn't. It will remain abstract... for them. But it doesn't mean it IS abstract or that the question can't be answered. It only means that at the moment, an individual is or is not in possession of that answer, that knowledge if you will.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Replying first to the thread title and not to the first post, in evolution there are a couple of things loneliness does. It enforces social cohesion, and it kills off the socially unfit, the incompetent and the weak. Human beings today have to choose whether to ally with nature's killing sword (like the alt right does) or to oppose it by extending a hand to the weak, the unfortunate or the unfit. We have to choose, because not choosing is automatically a choice.

Replying to the substance of the post, its detrimental to expect miracles to replace personal responsible action. For example its not OK to pray for someone to get a job but not do anything to help them get one. You would do better to help them and to not pray. You ally with nature's killing sword when you do that instead of working mercifully. So without any conscious decision we naturally attack the weak unless we actively work to support them. We become the allies of loneliness and death.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The second paragraph is the one which prompted me to write. I've read other posts of yours and think I understand that you take a rational (vs. abstract) approach to your realizations. So, rationally speaking, if you can categorically say that certain questions can't be answered (e.g., is there a deity or afterlife?), when you say that, is that not the equivalent of saying you have all the answers? But I think you would never out and out assert that, would you? It just sort of crept in?

No, it is more like I learned to acknowledge some questions as pointless and, ultimately, wasteful.

"Is there a God" and "Is there an afterlife" are definitely among those, far as I am concerned.

I do not have a definitive answer for those, mainly because they are unworthy of the trouble of seeking any. Pretty much anything else is more important.

As a matter of fact, the existence of those beliefs is far more significant than their answers.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Most of us have probably met at some point appeals for adopting what is presented as the proper beliefs to take us away from some form of undesirable result.

I have come to feel that there is a fundamental significance to that motivation when it is present in religious practice. Perhaps it taps into deep cravings for certainty and support, when we find ourselves faced with a largely indifferent world that all too often tosses us towards situations which we can neither understand nor confortably process.

Unfortunately, that is not a healthy motivation. The anxieties are real enough, but they must be addressed at the proper level - very often, a concrete, "street" level.

Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy. It leads to subtle yet powerful and very harmful forms of slavery and alienation.

Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presentes itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It can be hard in practice, and social support is very much needed, at least when one is not all that settled in the first place. But it is a very worthwhile perspective, and one that pays itself many times over even from the first few steps.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?
I'm not sure how to respond, @LuisDantas

I'm a perennial optimist, it's just the way my psyche has evolved over the course of my life. I hope for the best, but plan - often meticulously - for the worst and try my best to throttle back unrealistic expectations to avoid the anxiety of disappointment. In this way, when things go sideways I'm miffed but get over it quickly because I have a backup plan (or 4). I don't leave anything to fate or to god(s) and prefer my reality "straight up", as it were.

One of the greatest rules I've learned is to treat each moment on Earth as if it were my last. This makes every moment count and you do the best you can and so are rarely caught with the feeling, "Gee, I could have done that so much better." (To be honest, I'm hard pressed to think of the last time I felt that way which should show you how well this works once you get the hang of it.)

It is because of the above that I tend to be quite deliberate. Deliberate mindfulness?

Another idea I have embraced is one brought to my attention by @crossfire She reminded me of Buddhas comments on the 4 imponderables. I dumped pretty hard on that when I first encountered it, but I've grown to really appreciate the wisdom behind it.

Acinteyya - Wikipedia
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
No, it is more like I learned to acknowledge some questions as pointless and, ultimately, wasteful.

"Is there a God" and "Is there an afterlife" are definitely among those, far as I am concerned.

I do not have a definitive answer for those, mainly because they are unworthy of the trouble of seeking any. Pretty much anything else is more important.

As a matter of fact, the existence of those beliefs is far more significant than their answers.

Belief and/or faith is not the same as experience, but we weren't discussing your opinions about the value of these particular question(s) nor even the value of their answers, Luis. We were discussing whether they can be answered or not. You say 'no.' You are flat out wrong. You have not, do not and will not either ask the question nor seek the answer. So while you are eminently qualified to say neither is important (to you, and by questionable extension, apparently the whole of the entire planet's population), IMO, you are not qualified to say the answer doesn't exist.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Belief and/or faith is not the same as experience, but we weren't discussing your opinions about the value of these particular question(s) nor even the value of their answers, Luis.
I was. That is what this thread is all about.

We were discussing whether they can be answered or not. You say 'no.'
Actually, I say that they are not worth answering, or even wondering whether they can be answered.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
...but we weren't discussing your opinions about the value of these particular question(s) nor even the value of their answers

I was. That is what this thread is all about.
Actually, I say that they are not worth answering, or even wondering whether they can be answered.

I see. I'm sorry, Luis, I mistook the topic of your thread, then. It's an opinion piece, and of course, you're entitled to them. BTW, as far as it goes, I agree with the "process to achieve equanimity" you prescribe in your original post.... I do, however, disagree with the statements advanced to support the benefits or rationale for pursuing such a course as opined in the last paragraph, and in fact, if a person succeeds in really getting your medicine down, he well may be in for the surprise of his life!

Taking the medicine of detachment day in and day out is tough, you said it. And it would be grossly unfair, disingenuous even, if I claimed it was my practice and not grace (another abstract, right? :rolleyes:), which enabled me to have a sense-transcending experience. Either way, with practice (I have heard) or by the receipt of grace (I know) one may succeed in getting his craving, clamoring senses and tumultuous mind silent enough to slip into or become aware of a state of consciousness which literally bypasses them both, a leap made standing still which transports awareness of here to awareness of the real Here. It exists. Until one has experienced "both," though, one will simply not have the data to compare and silly people like me will be trying to say, "Look! There's more to it! Really! It's not what it seems!" In truth, Here alone exists but does a grand job of parceling out appearance(s) to the contrary. And coping with the appearances, iterations of appearances and all the attendant falderal of appearances is where anyone might find the medicine of detachment useful, no matter the motive for taking it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is always "something more", @Sw. Vandana Jyothi . That much is certain. We are limited.

It does not really follow that we are better off focusing on that, particularly when we do not have a clear idea of what we want to seek or why.

Some people might. Others probably won't.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
There is always "something more", @Sw. Vandana Jyothi . That much is certain. We are limited.

It does not really follow that we are better off focusing on that, particularly when we do not have a clear idea of what we want to seek or why.

Some people might. Others probably won't.

But... but... but... you're making my point! If you're certain "there's more," it logically follows or at least, it's not prohibited by logic, that the "more" might be the acquisition of personally irrefutable experience that "a deity" or "the afterlife" exists. However, I didn't say that people should focus on experiencing that. Most people don't have a clear idea of what, or more importantly, why they seek in this realm; as you say in your OP, it is usually the experience of feeling "unfulfilled or pain" which makes someone seek something "other than this" and/or to seek something in the realm of "more." This is where religion comes into the picture for a lot of people, but it doesn't have to be the route taken.

There's something in me, Cosmic Spirit or Infinitude, something which protests you trying to put me in your "we" basket, vis a vis "we are limited" and perhaps some of your other "we" statements which contradict my personal experience. Your assertion only holds true in this realm, this here, and even then not always. If we are limited, we are limited by what? Mostly our beliefs which are not backed by experience. There's an ongoing thread elsewhere about the value of understanding gained by "reading about something" and the knowledge gained by "experiencing something." The latter, IMO, is the only source of knowledge worthy of the name.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But... but... but... you're making my point! If you're certain "there's more," it logically follows or at least, it's not prohibited by logic, that the "more" might be the acquisition of personally irrefutable experience that "a deity" or "the afterlife" exists.

No, I am opposing your point.

You are saying that it is worth pursuing that. I say it is not. I do not welcome that distraction from real, relevant religious matters.
 

Sw. Vandana Jyothi

Truth is One, many are the Names
Premium Member
No, I am opposing your point.

You are saying that it is worth pursuing that. I say it is not. I do not welcome that distraction from real, relevant religious matters.

Now, wait a minute here ;). I said nothing of the kind! Nowhere in this thread did I give my opinion about the value of pursuing something "more" nor did I encourage its pursuit. I only truthfully say that "something more" exists. And so, apparently, do you!
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Everything seems to work better with a bit of mystery and awe, at least from a psychological standpoint.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Most of us have probably met at some point appeals for adopting what is presented as the proper beliefs to take us away from some form of undesirable result.

I have come to feel that there is a fundamental significance to that motivation when it is present in religious practice. Perhaps it taps into deep cravings for certainty and support, when we find ourselves faced with a largely indifferent world that all too often tosses us towards situations which we can neither understand nor confortably process.

Unfortunately, that is not a healthy motivation. The anxieties are real enough, but they must be addressed at the proper level - very often, a concrete, "street" level.

Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy. It leads to subtle yet powerful and very harmful forms of slavery and alienation.

Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presentes itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It can be hard in practice, and social support is very much needed, at least when one is not all that settled in the first place. But it is a very worthwhile perspective, and one that pays itself many times over even from the first few steps.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?
What if you're like me and your greatest and only joy comes through prayer?...I've lost interest in other things because that feeling of enlightenment and closeness to the spirit-world isn't there...nothing else makes me happy... everything else is impermanent and falling apart
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What if you're like me and your greatest and only joy comes through prayer?...I've lost interest in other things because that feeling of enlightenment and closeness to the spirit-world isn't there...nothing else makes me happy... everything else is impermanent and falling apart
I can't claim to know what you should do, but at first glance it feels like there is something worrisome with that.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most of us have probably met at some point appeals for adopting what is presented as the proper beliefs to take us away from some form of undesirable result.

I have come to feel that there is a fundamental significance to that motivation when it is present in religious practice. Perhaps it taps into deep cravings for certainty and support, when we find ourselves faced with a largely indifferent world that all too often tosses us towards situations which we can neither understand nor confortably process.

Unfortunately, that is not a healthy motivation. The anxieties are real enough, but they must be addressed at the proper level - very often, a concrete, "street" level.

Many people end up nurturing hope that things will ultimately turn out to be fine due to some form of miracle or higher plan. It happens very often among those plagued by poverty, conflict or simple loneliness.

Such a passive religious posture has very negative consequences IMO, and should always be avoided. Human nature is hurt by continuous postponing and divorcing between everyday realities and expectations of joy. It leads to subtle yet powerful and very harmful forms of slavery and alienation.

Instead, a constructive posture would be that of nurturing a set of achievable, practical, mutually related virtues - awareness of reality as it presentes itself; serenity to deal with it without panicking or breaking; willingness to learn and accept the prices and risks involved.

It can be hard in practice, and social support is very much needed, at least when one is not all that settled in the first place. But it is a very worthwhile perspective, and one that pays itself many times over even from the first few steps.

It also dissolves the perceived importance of abstract questions that tend to be hugely over-valued, such as whether there is any deity or afterlife. Those questions can't really be answered, but they are only perceived as being worth of any consideration because so many of us are so deeply troubled by their everyday reality.

Comments?
I agree with this and I think that with more and better education the problem of loneliness could be helped. Education should be made more respectable and all the people who choose to be educators should be honored better than they are being honored. There should be a system to take out bad ones and to reward good ones. The good ones are they who make education desirable. The bad ones are they who make education painful.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fear and loneliness breeds belief in gods. Probably true.

Though I think, that being different also breeds belief in The God.

It was loneliness that incited me to take up Bible study with the Jehovah's Witnesses.
It was recognizing that I was different that caused my search for GOD.

I think I found HIM.* :D

*or maybe more appropriately, "IT"
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Consider this. Uncleanliness causes loneliness. It used to be said that cleanliness is next to godliness. We know that is not true. But what I think is true is that cleanliness is next to friendliness.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I can't claim to know what you should do, but at first glance it feels like there is something worrisome with that.
Yeah...it could be mental illness but I get a lot of peace, joy, and pleasant visions when I pray, especially to Mother Mary and my Spirit-guide. Nothing else gives me that anymore and I do find that worrisome
 
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