The Role of The Shaman

[kreeden]

In one of Carlos Castaneda's books , I can't recall which , nor the actual words used but believe it was when don Jaun was speaking of the power of Jimson Weed he implied that the world has changed . Something along the lines that the powers once given would now only upset the white man and scare the Indian . In his book " Journey to Ixtlan " he also implied that at some point a Shaman would preceive the world as being false , unreal , and this rather alienates him { or her } .

If the above is correct , then what is the role of the Shaman in todays world ? Or any world for that matter . Should the Spiritual have some connection to what we usually think as the " real world ". Or is the purpose to escape this world for something better ?

 

[YmirGF]

In one of Carlos Castaneda's books , I can't recall which , nor the actual words used but believe it was when don Jaun was speaking of the power of Jimson Weed he implied that the world has changed . Something along the lines that the powers once given would now only upset the white man and scare the Indian . In his book " Journey to Ixtlan " he also implied that at some point a Shaman would preceive the world as being false , unreal , and this rather alienates him { or her } .

If the above is correct , then what is the role of the Shaman in todays world ? Or any world for that matter . Should the Spiritual have some connection to what we usually think as the " real world ". Or is the purpose to escape this world for something better ?

I have always been a "fan" of Carlos and Don Juan. I guess it is some perculiar aspect of my psyche that drew me to his writings in the first place. Though I have never considered myself to be a shaman or anything of the sort, his message struck a strangely familiar chord with me. "Seeing" was a term I related to instantly, as well as a few other oddities.

Based on my own experiences, inner experience is one of the darndest things to describe. In one way they have an indescribable unifying effect that makes you feel at one with your world, although that is somewhat trite in this day and age. The other odd aspect of inner experience is that they do have an unusual quality of alienating one from the world one used to know. You cannot slam the lid down on Pandora's box and pretend that you did not "see" a thing. You can try, but I doubt you will be successful, without driving yourself insane. Don Juan helped me to understand that inner exploration is not a game. It is serious business and only fools will tell you otherwise.

Kreeden, you ask, What is the role of the Shaman in our modern world? I don't know the "right" answer, but I do have some opinions. It would seem to me that the role of the Shaman in traditional terms has been pretty well neutered as Shamanic insights do not mean especially much to the average person. The average person cannot relate to such insights as they have no real relevance to such a person's day to day reality, or so they would think.

If that is the case, then can we say that traditional Shamanistic thought is "over the hill"? In one sense, yes it is. However, in another sense, nothing has really changed. What I am getting at is that there will always be those who are NOT content with pre-packaged truths and will look for answers in the most unlikely places. Whatever floats their boat, in effect. This type of person will blaze their own trail with almost total disregard for any negative impact to their actions. I would suggest they are compelled to try to find an order in their world that is not available off the shelf.

I suspect that people of this nature, or predilection, will follow an earth based, quasi-shamanic path. It is my feeling, and experience, that such people will sense a connection to something that is beyond themselves in ways that they may or may not be able to express. In many cases it will simply be their own wishful thinking, much like those who imagine past incarnations they lived as kings or queens.

That being said, again, there are still a very small number left that will have what it takes to make progress on this esoteric road. As I stated elsewhere, I perceive the role of the Shaman as not some crazy glorified witch doctor of Hollywood fame, but rather as an awakener. For the right people, the Shaman will prove pivotal in their thinking as the Shaman can show new vista's of thought that cannot be found in any books.

There is the rub, really. Direct experience or ancient texts? Which would you prefer? To my thinking, that is the dividing line.

Sorry to be so long winded, as it is a fairly difficult topic, and I have not answered all your questions. Ah well, I have run out of steam... for now.

What do you think?

 

[kreeden]

I think that you and I think quite alike .

I started looking into the Shamanic Way searching for an answer to some things that I had always done , or that had often happened , which is hard to explain using accepted " logic ". Although I am not sure if I would say that I am a " fan " of Castaneda's work , I have to admit that it did give me some possible answers . And I also felt that " familiar chord " you speak of . I too use the Shamanic Path as a way of self enlightenment .

But I found as many things in don Jaun's teachings that did not strike that " familiar chord " as did . Perhaps that is just me ? I have yet to find any writings on Shamanism that really does run 100% with my experiences , so I don't call myself a Shaman neither . More quasi-shamanic as you put it . Not that I conside it a game , but that because it is a personal quest , I have no need for another to lead me . { and I dislike labels }. But the point is , if something works for you , use it . If not , leave it and move on . I believe that there is more then one Path ... but I am getting off topic , kinda .

There are those who claim that Shamans are Healers . And yes , they can be . But that which heals can also harm . Like the arguement over White and Dark Magic ... Anyway , those who claim that Shamans are Healers use that as a defining aspect of what Shamans are . But for me , that is a much too narrow defination . And it implies that a Shaman needs a clan , or people to look after . Which would be a good thing , but is it needed ?

In short , I can't answer my own question . I can only answer how it relates to myself . To me , the role of the Shaman in today's soceity is to explore the connection between the Physical and the Mental , and the Spiritual . All three must have some relationship to each other , or one or all would be meaningless , an ilusion .

As I say , that only applies to me . Others can find their own uses and Purpose . { Purpose , another topic don Jaun liked talking about } . This could lead to alienation , but I think that as long as one stays focused upon the connections of the three { thre Realities in my opinion } , one would remain a part of all three . But then , I have always been a bit of a loner ... so it is hard to say if my views have alienated me ...

 

[Feathers in Hair]

While I do not come from the tradition of First Nations shamanism, I see the role of shamanism as being the same as it almost always is and has been- as a walker between worlds.

 

[YmirGF]

While I do not come from the tradition of First Nations shamanism, I see the role of shamanism as being the same as it almost always is and has been- as a walker between worlds.

Hehe. Bang on, FeathersinHair. A walker. How splendidly put. I know that is how I feel, althogh that is quite a claim LOL. I feel alientated in the sense that I do not precisely fit either... and yet am quite at home with both the visible or the unseen.

I think my most valid contribution to this thread is that such an endeavor is not a game, or something to be taken lightly. This is not a path for the armchair hobbyist. I think, in one sense, this is why I have been so supportive of Master Vigil as he seems to embody a responsible "sensible shoes" approach.

I know that my path has been a rather wild and rocky road. I stumbled a lot, but I never really got off the beaten track that I set before myself. For example, I have never doubted my experience, not once, in over thirty years. To me, that tells me I am either highly deluded or I have in fact made some progress. I do doubt my perception of reality on a daily basis, just to ensure I have not lost my grasp.

I have stated, almost at every turn, that I follow no religion or school of thought, but if I were to try to label my path, it would be as an earth based modern Shamanic role. Like yourself, Kreeden, I cannot really label what I am all about. There are no labels that fit perfectly, and would tie me up in a pretty package, like a present looking for a good place to go.

For example Kreeden, and I would not exclude Feathers (and a few others) here, we do see things similarly, and I point to our fascination with dreams and what I call the Art of Dreaming. I am sure I am "preaching to the converted", but I would tell anyone who is interested that dreaming is very much an art form. Most folks, simply have no idea what their dream life can unviel. If they knew, they would break all barriers in order to understand... and experience directly, what it is they indeed can.

I perceive dreaming as one of the most natural avenues to inner exploration, and that is one of the main things I took away from reading Carlos and the strange wisdom of Don Juan/Don Genaro. Dreaming is something within the reach of all living people, and is not something that is terribly esoteric or "out there". And yes, Kreeden, I subscribe to your "three realities" almost to a T.

Thoughts?

 

[kreeden]

Feathers , although I have an idea of what you mean , could you explain yourself a little ? " Walking between worlds ' is more of an action then a purpose or role . Traditionally Shamans have been guides within their cultures . Healers and spiritual guides . Do you see your role as being the same ?

YmirGF , I think that perhaps I should read Castaneda's book on dreams . Dreams are one of the things I refered to earlier , that I have " always " done ... Of course everyone dreams , but some dreams go beyond the norm .

BTW I see Shamanism more as a way of viewing the world around us then as a " religion ". Don Jaun went to great lenghts to teach Castaneda to break away from the thought paterns that society had inprinted upon him so the he could " see ". Which is something I totally agreed with . So I have some trouble to " exclude " anyone's view of the world , as long as it shows respect ...

I think that is the main thing I took from the books . Although I had believed that we are conditioned to think in set ways before reading them , don Jaun took the concept to greater lenghts then I had went before . I'm not sure how to put it , but how we perceive Reality is of great importance when it comes to understanding both Dreams and Visions . Like the piece of cloth in the books , Carlos explained it away to the point where it was meaningless , while to don Jaun , it hold true power on and in it's self . { Can't recall which book it was , but they were looking at a piece of cloth stuck on a cactus ... } Science and logic teaches us to do just that , explain things way so that there is no longer any mystery . In that sense , both limits us to what we are told is " real ". But there are things that either science nor logic seems to be able to explain . Which I think is why don Jaun said that he was not a " reasonable " man , although he appeared to be totally reasonable in his thinking . { I believe that " reasonable " was the term he used ??? } .

 

[YmirGF]

If you dovetail Feathers, "walker between worlds" and my thought of "awakener" you arrive at a happy middle ground. The awakener is meant to awaken in the individual the possibility of other things. My feeling is that all that is needed is to awaken people to the possibility that there is much more for them to perceive than that which their outward senses tell them. Once awakened, the individuals path unfurls, on its own.

Ah, Kreeden, the is no single "Don Juan Dream Book". His later volumes do deal extensively with dreaming and Carlos's stumbling, bumbling, mastery of what Don Juan called "the dream double". I cannot stress how important that concept is LOL.

Hehe, now you have got me curious... I may just dig out a couple of his later books and thumb through to see if anything might peak your curiosity. It wan't so much Don Juan's views about dreaming, per se. The thing that leapt out at me was the concept (and reality) of this dream double. Frankly, once one gets a handle on that idea, well... you aren't exactly in Kansas anymore.

 

[kreeden]

" The Art Of Dreaming " isn't about dreaming ????

Yes , I understand that by " walking between worlds " one can awaken their awareness . I was just asking Feathers to expand upon how she sees that as a role . And yes , I understand how it could be a role in it's self , the awaking part , but does Feathers see it as it's main role in her life ?

If so , it would appear that the three of us agree that the main role of Shamanism today is self awareness ? Is that correct ?

 

[YmirGF]

" The Art Of Dreaming " isn't about dreaming ????

Well, I'll be danged, LOL. I just checked. Sorry I didn't realize that book was out.
*feels somewhat foolish*

By the looks of Carlos's website, there is a great deal he has released in recent years, that I am not aware of. I will definitely pick up the book though. Should be very interesting.
Thank you for enlightening this ol' fool, LOL.

 

[kreeden]

On this topic , just because it is called the Art Of Dreaming , doesn't mean that it is about dreaming ... But it is my understanding that it is ?

It is also my understanding that it is his later books that .... appear to get farther away from what his first books were talking about . Something he called " tensegrity " ? However that is just hearsay on my part as I have never read any other then his first three .

 

[YmirGF]

On this topic , just because it is called the Art Of Dreaming , doesn't mean that it is about dreaming ... But it is my understanding that it is ?

It is also my understanding that it is his later books that .... appear to get farther away from what his first books were talking about . Something he called " tensegrity " ? However that is just hearsay on my part as I have never read any other then his first three .

I am with you on this one Kreeden. I have not bought a new Castaneda book in many years. I think the last one I got was "The Fire from within" (1984), and I have all the ones prior to that, as well. The tensegrity thing looks interesting, but I will have to read quite a bit more about it.

I am going to assume the "Art of Dreaming" is about dreaming LOL. Looks like I shot my mouth off a bit early. All the while I thought you were just being eloquent talking about the "art of dreaming". Perhaps you can understand my confusion now hehe.

 

[kreeden]

I figured that you hadn't heard of that one . But wasn't quite sure as I am going on hearsay myself . No biggie . It is quite easy to have a book slip by once in awhile .

Again , on hearsay , I hear that " tensegrity " is very much like T'ai Chi ?

But I am getting off topic . Sorry .

 

[kreeden]

I picked up a copy of " The Art of Dreaming " today . Report to follow ...

 

[YmirGF]

I picked up a copy of " The Art of Dreaming " today . Report to follow ...

I have not ventured out of my cave yet. I will eagerly await your report

 

[SkinnyCheruscian]

Carlos Castaneda has started as an anthropologist, but is now considered a forgery. Some guy has meticulously analysed inconsistencies etc, coming to the conclusion that all was made up. He also showed that Castaneda plagiarised the field work of others. This was around 1975. In reaction, Castaneda has refused showing any original notebooks, which is very unusual.

There is also broad opposition against him from Native Americans, who say what is described in the books has nothing to do with what we do.

Personally, I find the first books are not bad, and I can imagine that they are based on some authentic experiences. At the same time, it is obvious to me that they are fiction. Don Juan is just a bit too perfect to be a real human. And what completely misses are cultural misunderstandings. I don't believe that communication with someone from a radically different culture goes that smoothly, and I also don't believe that a Native elder talks like Nietzsche or Wittgenstein.

The later the volume the less credible it is. I stopped reading at volume 5. When it is all astral bodies and flying, there was not much point in reading it. I cannot see it or do it and it bored me.

Something I find Castaneda catches well is how difficult it is to integrate experiences of the other reality - it's like, am I going bonkers or not?

Something I find very different in Castaneda from any real shamanism is that there is very little social obligation, it is mainly collecting personal power. But thats sorcery. Shamanism however is always in the service of the community, it is never an ego trip. The few stories in Castaneda that some of the people involved were also healers are inconvincing. For real shamans, helping others is the main job, not a side aspect.

 

[kreeden]

I agree SC . Castaneda went to great lenghts in his first books about thinking beyond how we are taught to think . Other then that , I personally didn't find his books of much use .

Man , you have been diging to come up with these old posts .