The role of action within faith

[Dawnofhope]

I attended the retirement celebration of a university chaplain today. He seemed to have worked across cultures and different faiths to assist many young people on their journey through tertiary education, especially those away from home for the first time. I was quite impressed. He had been instrumental in setting up an Abrahamic Council after 9/11 to enable dialogue and better understanding between Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Later the Interfaith Council was formed to be more representative of the diversity of faith groups. My chaplain associate had been a very active participant in both groups. After the terrorist attacks leading to the killing of 51 Muslims in a city nearby he had spearheaded the response of both my city and university where we came together unified as one people in the aftermath of an act of unprecedented evil. Unfortunately he became exhausted and burnt out a few months later having to take early retirement which we ‘celebrated’ today.

I’ve been contemplating the role of actions and good deeds in regards one’s faith. What is it about our faith or worldview that motivates us or inhibits us from doing good in the world. Clearly faith is not necessary for many people to do good. Many of us have experienced those who claim having a particular religion where faith is all important and good deeds seem less of a priority.

How about if were nearing the end of our lives and we realised we are like a tree without fruit? Perhaps we have extended great efforts in this life to be of service to others. What attitudes would we draw from our faith when confronted with a life well lived?

So as we live our day to day lives what service do we offer humanity? What steps do we take to ensure we don’t burn out?

 

[stvdv]

Many Sages and Saints only meditate. Scriptures declare this is service.

Some people are born crippled, so doing service is problematic.

On the other hand all these options do make sense; to serve, you need someone to whom you can serve. So service is relative I think.

 

[pearl]

I’ve been contemplating the role of actions and good deeds in regards one’s faith. What is it about our faith or worldview that motivates us or inhibits us from doing good in the world. Clearly faith is not necessary for many people to do good. Many of us have experienced those who claim having a particular religion where faith is all important and good deeds seem less of a priority.

I have retired and do at times take stock of past actions and lack of actions. I think we have a sense of when it is time to avoid burnout. My life's work was caring for the dying with hospice patients. I witnessed the fear, the guilt, the family conflicts and the conflicts within the person and did what I could to ease their anxiety, especially guilt. No one should leave this world in fear and guilt. I recognize it does take its toll as I have not yet become an active hospice volunteer.

 

[Vinayaka]

I attended the retirement celebration of a university chaplain today. He seemed to have worked across cultures and different faiths to assist many young people on their journey through tertiary education, especially those away from home for the first time. I was quite impressed. He had been instrumental in setting up an Abrahamic Council after 9/11 to enable dialogue and better understanding between Muslims, Christians and Jews.

Later the Interfaith Council was formed to be more representative of the diversity of faith groups. My chaplain associate had been a very active participant in both groups. After the terrorist attacks leading to the killing of 51 Muslims in a city nearby he had spearheaded the response of both my city and university where we came together unified as one people in the aftermath of an act of unprecedented evil. Unfortunately he became exhausted and burnt out a few months later having to take early retirement which we ‘celebrated’ today.

I’ve been contemplating the role of actions and good deeds in regards one’s faith. What is it about our faith or worldview that motivates us or inhibits us from doing good in the world. Clearly faith is not necessary for many people to do good. Many of us have experienced those who claim having a particular religion where faith is all important and good deeds seem less of a priority.

How about if were nearing the end of our lives and we realised we are like a tree without fruit? Perhaps we have extended great efforts in this life to be of service to others. What attitudes would we draw from our faith when confronted with a life well lived?

So as we live our day to day lives what service do we offer humanity? What steps do we take to ensure we don’t burn out?

Who would seem the greater person, an illiterate old widow who sweeps the streets of her village, picking up garbage, all the while maintaining a cheerful demeanor, cheering others as they walk by, or a scholar who has published many books, lives in a big house off the profits of book sales, and doesn't really give a rat's behind about the welfare of others?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Many Sages and Saints only meditate. Scriptures declare this is service.

Some people are born crippled, so doing service is problematic.

On the other hand all these options do make sense; to serve, you need someone to whom you can serve. So service is relative I think.

I’m intrigued somewhat by Bhakti yoga in Hinduism and how that works.

Obviously we all have different capacities for service, some great, others small. I wonder how much of capacity to serve is limited by ourselves and our egotistical and selfish nature.

I believe there’s merit in having periods of reflection, sometimes for extended periods. I do question its value if the one reflecting and meditating never gives anything back to the community, especially if he is a recipient of community welfare.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have retired and do at times take stock of past actions and lack of actions. I think we have a sense of when it is time to avoid burnout. My life's work was caring for the dying with hospice patients. I witnessed the fear, the guilt, the family conflicts and the conflicts within the person and did what I could to ease their anxiety, especially guilt. No one should leave this world in fear and guilt. I recognize it does take its toll as I have not yet become an active hospice volunteer.

I’ve often provided cared to the terminally ill both as a medical doctor and on a couple of occasions to family members. Its not something I was particularly well trained or prepared for in hindsight. Like anything I decided I would need to do it well. Its one of the few occasions I’ll provide my personal contact details so as to be easily accessed for advice. In some respects its become a specialised area of care and our local hospice does a great job. One of my early learnings was the necessity of good family support for those who choose to die at home. It sounds as if you had some very personal conversations and were privileged to be able to walk alongside those who were dying. I can’t imagine it would be an easy job full time and having conscious strategies to cope would be essential for many in this area. Some of us are better at avoiding burn out than others. My chaplain associate had served 30 years as an ordained minister so perhaps it was simply his time to retire.

 

[Vinayaka]

I’m intrigued somewhat by Bhakti yoga in Hinduism and how that works.

Obviously we all have different capacities for service, some great, others small. I wonder how much of capacity to serve is limited by ourselves and our egotistical and selfish nature.

I believe there’s merit in having periods of reflection, sometimes for extended periods. I do question its value if the one reflecting and meditating never gives anything back to the community, especially if he is a recipient of community welfare.

You might be confused between bhakti yoga and karma yoga. One is devotion, (service to God) the other is service to humanity. Yes there is some overlap.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Who would seem the greater person, an illiterate old widow who sweeps the streets of her village, picking up garbage, all the while maintaining a cheerful demeanor, cheering others as they walk by, or a scholar who has published many books, lives in a big house off the profits of book sales, and doesn't really give a rat's behind about the welfare of others?

I agree with the importance of joy and humility with whatever service we undertake.

We have a university in my town so self absorbed academics are not uncommon.

 

[stvdv]

I’m intrigued somewhat by Bhakti yoga in Hinduism and how that works.

A few thoughts I have on Bhakti: See God in all Creation(s). Accept what comes naturally to you (see it as God's gift). Avoid to run after it yourself (Ego desires)

 

[stvdv]

Obviously we all have different capacities for service, some great, others small. I wonder how much of capacity to serve is limited by ourselves and our egotistical and selfish nature.

Everything. Good point to reflect on.

Everything is done with ego, unless Self Realized. Some enlightening examples I heard Sai Baba say in this regard, that humbled me for the rest of my life (did not take my Ego away though).

1) Once in an interview with Sai Baba a man said "I want to do service". Sai answered "Cross the I, and get rid of the desire".

2) He also said "it's best to first get Self Realized, then go in the world and serve, for how can a blind man serve a blind man".

3) On another occasion He said "If you even think 'I do service' it's already worthless in God's Eye; as there is ego and arrogance that you serve another. Much better to see it as an opportunity the other gives you to get rid of your EGO"

4) He also once said something really uplifting. Someting like "Most people live their lives without ever having experienced God (real Love), that's very sad. If you only experience God, even if for 1 sec, your life has had meaning". But, He also added "better don't wait till you die, because it might take your whole life, to experience this 1 sec".

So, I do agree that "not serving" is done out of Ego 99.999999% of the time, except for some 1 or 2 Self Realized Masters. But at the same time "service" is done out of Ego also (except, again like above, for the rare 1 or 2 Masters who are devoid of Ego).

I love those words of Sai. They keep me very humble and focused on the Goal. I rather have 2 sec than just one of course, so better work "hard"

 

[Dawnofhope]

Everything. Good point to reflect on.

Everything is done with ego, unless Self Realized. Some enlightening examples I heard Sai Baba say in this regard, that humbled me for the rest of my life (did not take my Ego away though).

1) Once in an interview with Sai Baba a man said "I want to do service". Sai answered "Cross the I, and get rid of the desire".

2) He also said "it's best to first get Self Realized, then go in the world and serve, for how can a blind man serve a blind man".

3) On another occasion He said "If you even think 'I do service' it's already worthless in God's Eye; as there is ego and arrogance that you serve another. Much better to see it as an opportunity the other gives you to get rid of your EGO"

4) He also once said something really uplifting. Someting like "Most people live their lives without ever having experienced God (real Love), that's very sad. If you only experience God, even if for 1 sec, your life has had meaning". But, He also added "better don't wait till you die, because it might take your whole life, to experience this 1 sec".

So, I do agree that "not serving" is done out of Ego 99.999999% of the time, except for some 1 or 2 Self Realized Masters. But at the same time "service" is done out of Ego also (except, again like above, for the rare 1 or 2 Masters who are devoid of Ego).

I love those words of Sai. They keep me very humble and focused on the Goal. I rather have 2 sec than just one of course, so better work "hard"

Have a period of reflection and meditation has been part of the life’s of the many religious founders. Jesus spent 40 days in the desert before beginning His ministry. The Buddha had six years or so before He became enlightened then had a 40 year ministry. Bahá’u’lláh had 2 years of relative seclusion within the mountains of Kurdistan at the early part of His 40 years of His ministry. Interesting the number 40 symbolising trials and tribulations. These can be inner as well as outer.

 

[stvdv]

Have a period of reflection and meditation has been part of the life’s of the many religious founders. Jesus spent 40 days in the desert before beginning His ministry. The Buddha had six years or so before He became enlightened then had a 40 year ministry. Bahá’u’lláh had 2 years of relative seclusion within the mountains of Kurdistan at the early part of His 40 years of His ministry. Interesting the number 40 symbolising trials and tribulations. These can be inner as well as outer.

Yes, 40 seems a special number. And seeing the numbers, it makes sense, that not many make it into Enlightenment. I mean, if it took Buddha 6 years, then I won't be surprised it will take me 60 years (I am still optimistic...I know)

So, once they got Self Realization, God did not let them of the hook that easy. Especially Bahaullah, I read some more today. That was really a hard time, being in prison for over a decade and so many Bahais were killed.

 

[stvdv]

Have a period of reflection and meditation has been part of the life’s of the many religious founders. Jesus spent 40 days in the desert before beginning His ministry. The Buddha had six years or so before He became enlightened then had a 40 year ministry. Bahá’u’lláh had 2 years of relative seclusion within the mountains of Kurdistan at the early part of His 40 years of His ministry. Interesting the number 40 symbolising trials and tribulations. These can be inner as well as outer.

I have a question. There is this concept of Karma. If you do some act, you are bound to see the reactions (unless you have no Ego attachment to your action; being enlightened).

So, in times and places of war and killings, it seems there is quite some karmic payback time. It is like a big karmic cleansing when seen from the ones being killed. But on the other hand, the ones doing the killing create karma. So netto effect seems zero to me (unless 1 person kills many).

How do Bahais see the concept of karma; did Bahaullah mention it? At least I know they try hard to live a dharmic life; so less creation of "negative" karma. For me it feels also natural to act as virtuous as possible. Maybe in previous live I acted bad, and learned thereby that virtuous living is the way to go

(At least Sai Baba made no secret about it; you all had plenty of previous lives as murderers, rapists and what not; don't think for a second you are any better). Do Bahais also see it in this way. So many Bahais have been killed.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have a question. There is this concept of Karma. If you do some act, you are bound to see the reactions (unless you have no Ego attachment to your action; being enlightened).

So, in times and places of war and killings, it seems there is quite some karmic payback time. It is like a big karmic cleansing when seen from the ones being killed. But on the other hand, the ones doing the killing create karma. So netto effect seems zero to me (unless 1 person kills many).

How do Bahais see the concept of karma; did Bahaullah mention it? At least I know they try hard to live a dharmic life; so less creation of "negative" karma. For me it feels also natural to act as virtuous as possible. Maybe in previous live I acted bad, and learned thereby that virtuous living is the way to go

(At least Sai Baba made no secret about it; you all had plenty of previous lives as murderers, rapists and what not; don't think for a second you are any better). Do Bahais also see it in this way. So many Bahais have been killed.

Thanks for your question @stvdv
The first consideration is Baha’is don’t believe in literal reincarnation with the transmigration of souls. The life of the soul begins at conception and continues on through the world’s of God after this world. Our progress in both this life and the next depends. If we develop good character and virtues then that becomes its own reward. If we fail to develop spiritually then our progress in both this world and the next are affected.

While Bahá’u’lláh’s audience was mostly Muslim the concept of consequences (reward or punishment) for good deeds or misdeeds is a central part of a Baha’i narrative, or for any of the Abrahamic Faiths.

Its important to consider collective karma too. So when communities and nations fail to respond to what God requires this can lead to suffering on a more widespread way including wars.

Hope that helps.

 

[stvdv]

Thanks for your question @stvdv
The first consideration is Baha’is don’t believe in literal reincarnation with the transmigration of souls. The life of the soul begins at conception and continues on through the world’s of God after this world. Our progress in both this life and the next depends. If we develop good character and virtues then that becomes its own reward. If we fail to develop spiritually then our progress in both this world and the next are affected.

While Bahá’u’lláh’s audience was mostly Muslim the concept of consequences (reward or punishment) for good deeds or misdeeds is a central part of a Baha’i narrative, or for any of the Abrahamic Faiths.

Its important to consider collective karma too. So when communities and nations fail to respond to what God requires this can lead to suffering on a more widespread way including wars.

Hope that helps.

Thank you Adrian. It' getting clearer.

So, you believe that from now on you will continue to live through the worlds of God after this world.

Does this mean you don't come back on this earth, but you go to other worlds. Even when you did not learn all the lessons on earth? And in the other world is there the same "you"; as awareness, with or without personality awareness (personal relations on earth vanish from this "you" etc)?

Or does it mean, that if you fail here (to learn the lessons), you kind of vaporize, and only the ones "making it here" continue to the other worlds?

 

[stvdv]

The first consideration is Baha’is don’t believe in literal reincarnation with the transmigration of souls. The life of the soul begins at conception and continues on through the world’s of God after this world.

Is this directly from Bahaullah or from one of the successors?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's not that faith is unimportant. It's just that the reed that measures acceptability is action. If I'm starving, do I care if the person giving me food does so with a charitable heart or begrudgingly? Certainly not! I'm just glad to get the food. I'm not saying that giving with kavanah isn't a higher version, I'm just saying that giving with poor motivation is still a good work.

 

[tayla]

How about if were nearing the end of our lives and we realised we are like a tree without fruit?

I'm not immediately at the end of life, but I ponder such questions.

In life we did what we did based on who we were born as, and on our life circumstances. We should not expect to have done anything different, and should not feel bad if we were not as serviceful as someone else might expect. And we do not get a do-over.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you Adrian. It' getting clearer.

So, you believe that from now on you will continue to live through the worlds of God after this world.

Does this mean you don't come back on this earth, but you go to other worlds. Even when you did not learn all the lessons on earth? And in the other world is there the same "you"; as awareness, with or without personality awareness (personal relations on earth vanish from this "you" etc)?

Or does it mean, that if you fail here (to learn the lessons), you kind of vaporize, and only the ones "making it here" continue to the other worlds?

Adrian will respond, but I have come to see this world as a Matrix for the development of our Soul. A place where we can freely obtain all the required limbs for our spiritual existence to come.

This is a big subject, as there are many writings on this subject alone. There are many many answers that can be given.

Regards Tony

 

[tayla]

I’ve been contemplating the role of actions and good deeds in regards one’s faith. What is it about our faith or worldview that motivates us or inhibits us from doing good in the world. Clearly faith is not necessary for many people to do good. Many of us have experienced those who claim having a particular religion where faith is all important and good deeds seem less of a priority.

Yes, some people (religious or not religious) do good in the world, and some don't.

Some do good that is not noticed by others; not noticed by those people expecting from everyone grand, earth-shattering efforts; or who emphasize fame.

Sadly, some people (hopefully just a few) are too lazy and self-centered to help anyone anyway.

I agree that it has value to educate people about the value of helping others (and in recognizing that helping your friends and family counts as helping), and providing opportunities to make it even possible for those who are not super-energetic or who have difficulties.

I suspect everyone helps others. Should every citizen be expected to participate in designated community service for X number of hours?