The return of Jesus, the claimants, and the Quran. Is it really real?

[firedragon]

We can consider if this can continue if we can discuss what is meant by 'Christ'. That Jesus was Christ is what the Christain Church was to be built upon, so that would be useful.

Thus we know Christ means 'Annointed One', so can we explore to see if the Quran does offers another Annointed one after Muhammad the 'Seal of the Prophets'. Muhammad was also 'Anointed' with a Message from Allah?

Is a return of an Annointed One talked about in any way?

Regards Tony

Tony. Christ means anointed one, and everyone knows that.

The Quran says "Masih" That too everyone knows. So you can leave the obvious out now. Only Jesus is called the Masih. Al Masih eesabnu maryama. The messiah, Eesa son of Mary.

Show me where in the Quran it says "the Masih will return"?

Try and answer at least one question with a specific response.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay. Then you and your faith is not relevant to the topic.

Or exactly the opposite, it is. But I will take the topic off my list.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony. Christ means anointed one, and everyone knows that.

The Quran says "Masih" That too everyone knows. So you can leave the obvious out now. Only Jesus is called the Masih. Al Masih eesabnu maryama. The messiah, Eesa son of Mary.

Show me where in the Quran it says "the Masih will return"?

Try and answer at least one question with a specific response.

All good firedragon, you fire me up and I am out. If you are fair about it, all your topics have your restrictions placed upon them.

I see no truth can be discussed when we restrict and we argue, we are both wrong.

So all the best, the topic is of my list to reply to. Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

All good firedragon, you fire me up and I am out. If you are fair about it, all your topics have your restrictions placed upon them.

I see no truth can be discussed when we restrict and we argue, we are both wrong.

So all the best, the topic is of my list to reply to. Regards Tony

Yes. It is true that any topic I open, I wish to discuss the. topic. Its nothing personal.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Show me where in the Quran it says "the Masih will return"?

Try and answer at least one question with a specific response.

You are not just restricting the OP to ask for a verse of Quran saying Jesus will come down from sky to earth.

You are also arguing that, if this belief was true, it must have been expressed in the Quran explicitly.

Which I agree. Because the same Jesus, physically will never return. He died on the cross.

Other participants have said that as well.

But in Bahai View, if one concluds from these, that comming of God or the Lord was not promised in the Quran, then this is a false conclusion. For, in Bahai view, Coming of Lord, was an allusion to Bahaullah, who is a Manifestation of God.
Part of your OP, is also about claimants. Bahaullah also claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies of Return of Christ as described in the Bible, and in our view, the Bible is confirmed in the Quran. So, if you say, we only restrict to the Quran, but must set aside the Bible, in our view it is a false approach for the Bible was inspired by God, and contains truth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@firedragon

Why did I speak of Mutishabihat and Taweel?

Because I was trying to tell you that, in the Quran, there are Mutishabihat verses as well, and these Mutishabihat require Taweel. And Taweel as in the examples in the Quran, means an interpretation or fulfillment according to the meaning of symbols. As we saw in the examples in the Surrah of Joseph, seven cows, stars, moon and the sun, are symbols, which require Taweel, or symbolic interpretation.

Now, think about these verses:


"We have certainly brought them a Book which We explained with knowledge—a guide and mercy for those who believe. Do they only await its Taweel? The Day its Taweel shall come, those who ignored it before will say, “The messengers of our Lord certainly came with the truth. Are there any intercessors who can plead on our behalf? Or can we be sent back so we may do ˹good,˺ unlike what we used to do?” They will have certainly ruined themselves, and whatever ˹gods˺ they fabricated will fail them." 7:52, 53


Reading Quran and pondering is a good thing. Think about this verse and how all the dots are connected.

First, the word Taweel, in this verse is regarding the Quran, where in 3:7, we already saw, it is a Book containing Mutishabihat, that non knows its Taweel except God. Now, in 7:52 and 53, it promises that its Taweel shall come! When you read these verses, you would see, the intention is the Taweel of the Verses regarding Day of Resurrection or Judgement Day. What does this tell you? It tells you that the Prophecies regarding Day of Resurrection are to be fulfilled symbolically and the reason you know that, is, because this verse is saying its Taweel shall come. Taweel in the Quranic examples, means symbolic fulfillment or interpretation. Thus, if one expects that Day of Resurrection is to be interpreted literally, it is wrong, for these prophecies are expressed symbolically.
And Bahai scriptures explains how the Taweel of these verses have come already and how there are Mutishabihat verses in the Quran, which their Taweel was return of Christ. But because such verses are expressed symbolically, ordinary men were unable to see them as return of Christ.
I hope the Bahai view is clear now

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@firedragon

And now, here is a verse which in Bahai view is Mutishabihat, but in reality its Taweel is the same as return of Christ:


"What can such expect but that God should come down to them overshadowed with clouds, and the angels also, and their doom be sealed? And to God shall all things return." 2:210

Now, Bahai scriptures explains this verse in reality is about Christ to come, for God Himself is invisible and Unknowable essence.

Thus, when the Quran says God comes down with cloud, its Taweel is, that a new Person is to be manifested who performs the Will of God, and reveals the Word of God, and that is the Christ. This promise is fulfilled by the Person of Bahaullah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So the cleaning of the sanctuary began in 1844? So, the desecration of the sanctuary happened in 457BC? And again, the context of the ram and the goat and how one of the leaders is the one who put a stop to the daily sacrifice doesn't matter? So what about Antiochus Epiphanes? He didn't put a stop to the daily sacrifice and desecrate the Temple? Then the Jewish Revolt didn't defeat him and rededicate the Temple? My question has always been... why start the 2300 mornings and evenings from 457BC with the Edict to rebuild Jerusalem? That has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the context of Daniel 8. And to repeat Trailblazer, ultimately, Baha'is to go by these prophecies anyway, because they can't be proven. And they can be manipulated to say and mean whatever a person wants them to say. But then, when, supposedly, did God have these prophets say these things if they become totally useless in proving and predicting anything?

They aren’t the main proof, the Person, Life and Teachings of the Manifestation are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then what was God thinking? Giving vague references to things that nobody knows for sure what it is alluding to.

God was thinking that some people would put two and two together and get four, that some people -- called true seekers -- would see what the prophecies were referring to AFTER those prophecies were fulfilled. The All-knowing God knows that not many people will see what was written and fulfilled because they will allow their religious beliefs and/or their ego to get in the way of seeing what was clearly written and fulfilled. These are the clouds Jesus spoke of and the veils Baha'u'llah referred to.

Nobody could know what these prophecies were referring to UNTIL they were fulfilled, but after that they could know, if they wanted to know.

 

[Trailblazer]

They aren’t the main proof, the Person, Life and Teachings of the Manifestation are.

They aren't, because most prophecies can be so easily misinterpreted and misconstrued, whereas the Person, Life and Teachings of the Manifestation cannot be misconstrued.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? I thought Jews rejected Jesus, and Baha'u'llah, because neither fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah? Then, Christians have Jesus fulfilling all kinds of prophecies, especially the one about a virgin having a baby boy.

When I said "you won't find Jews or even Christians caring much about what the OT prophecies say" I was referring to the present time, on this forum, not to the Jews of the past who initially rejected Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill all the OT prophecies.

Do you see many Jews or Christians discussing the OT prophecies on this forum?

Jews do not reject Baha'u'llah because He did not fulfill the prophecies for the Messiah, they reject Him because He does not fit the Messiah they have made in their own image, what they expect and want that Messiah to be. It is for the same reasons that Christians reject Baha'u'llah, and because He is not Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

You are not just restricting the OP to ask for a verse of Quran saying Jesus will come down from sky to earth.

You are also arguing that, if this belief was true, it must have been expressed in the Quran explicitly.

Which I agree. Because the same Jesus, physically will never return. He died on the cross.

Other participants have said that as well.

But in Bahai View, if one concluds from these, that comming of God or the Lord was not promised in the Quran, then this is a false conclusion. For, in Bahai view, Coming of Lord, was an allusion to Bahaullah, who is a Manifestation of God.
Part of your OP, is also about claimants. Bahaullah also claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies of Return of Christ as described in the Bible, and in our view, the Bible is confirmed in the Quran. So, if you say, we only restrict to the Quran, but must set aside the Bible, in our view it is a false approach for the Bible was inspired by God, and contains truth.

Of course. Thats the whole point of the OP, which is not yet responded to, and all the Bahai's have got excited for nothing. It was me who told you that the Bahai theology is not that Jesus is returning but the Christ. And now you are repeating the same thing to me.

Many strange things happen here.

Anyway, can you show that the Christ will return from the Quran? Only Jesus is called the Masih. Al Masih eesabnu maryama. Jesus, Messiah the son of Maryam.

So that is why both are associated sister. Nevertheless, please show the Christ returning in the Quran.

P.S. As usual please dont deviate to other topics like Bible or anything else.

 

[firedragon]

Because I was trying to tell you that, in the Quran, there are Mutishabihat verses as well, and these Mutishabihat require Taweel.

Well. Thats not true. Thats a lie. There is nowhere in the Quran where it says 'Muthasabih Verses require Taweel". I have given you examples already so this is not true. How ever much you keep repeating it, it never will become true.

First, the word Taweel, in this verse is regarding the Quran, where in 3:7, we already saw, it is a Book containing Mutishabihat, that non knows its Taweel except God. Now, in 7:52 and 53, it promises that its Taweel shall come! When you read these verses, you would see, the intention is the Taweel of the Verses regarding Day of Resurrection or Judgement Day. What does this tell you? It tells you that the Prophecies regarding Day of Resurrection are to be fulfilled symbolically and the reason you know that, is, because this verse is saying its Taweel shall come. Taweel in the Quranic examples, means symbolic fulfillment or interpretation. Thus, if one expects that Day of Resurrection is to be interpreted literally, it is wrong, for these prophecies are expressed symbolically.
And Bahai scriptures explains how the Taweel of these verses have come already and how there are Mutishabihat verses in the Quran, which their Taweel was return of Christ. But because such verses are expressed symbolically, ordinary men were unable to see them as return of Christ.
I hope the Bahai view is clear now

What about the other verses with the word "Taweel"? Like simple verses? If this is the Bahai view, its false. Cherry picking, and nothing else.

 

[firedragon]

And now, here is a verse which in Bahai view is Mutishabihat, but in reality its Taweel is the same as return of Christ:

What about Abar? Ain, Ba, Ra.

 

[firedragon]

Thus, when the Quran says God comes down with cloud,

Where does the Quran say "God comes down with cloud"? Quote it to me.

Sis, the thing is you are absolutely mistaken, or/and someone mislead you. I know this verse. As soon as you mention something in the Qur'an I know what its referring to though I cannot remembering the verse exactly. You have misquoted the Quran directly and unambiguously.

Show me the verse. Lets see how you explain the verse actually says this. "God comes down with cloud". I will show you that you are been duped by someone. Quote the one verse.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What about Abar? Ain, Ba, Ra.

Yes, the disconnected letter in Quran are allusions to something. They have hidden meaning, but the Name of the Bab, and the year He was to declare is alluded to, by the disconnected letters of حم عسق when these letters are read backward:
قائم = ق
ستين = س
علي = ع
محمد = حم

قائم ستین علی محمد

The Bab who claimed to be the Qaim, declared in the year 60, and His name was Ali Muhammad.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, the disconnected letter in Quran are allusions to something. They have hidden meaning, but the Name of the Bab, and the year He was to declare is alluded to, by the disconnected letters of حم عسق when these letters are read backward:
قائم = ق
ستين = س
علي = ع
محمد = حم

قائم ستین علی محمد

The Bab who claimed to be the Qaim, declared in the year 60, and His name was Ali Muhammad.

I was not talking about that. I was talking about the word Abar. Ain, ba, Ra. In the Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where does the Quran say "God comes down with cloud"? Quote it to me.

Sis, the thing is you are absolutely mistaken, or/and someone mislead you. I know this verse. As soon as you mention something in the Qur'an I know what its referring to though I cannot remembering the verse exactly. You have misquoted the Quran directly and unambiguously.

Show me the verse. Lets see how you explain the verse actually says this. "God comes down with cloud". I will show you that you are been duped by someone. Quote the one verse.

I already quoted 2:210. God "comes to them".

Who are them, and where are they? In the sky? No, they are people on earth. God comes to them. You just need to ponder on the verses. Not everything literally has to be there, but you need to think, and used logical deduction to understand the verses.


I understand you interpret verse 2:210 differently. But it is Mutishabihat, thus only God knows its interpretation, not you and not me. So, when Bahaullah came, He told us its Taweel.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I was not talking about that. I was talking about the word Abar. Ain, ba, Ra. In the Quran.

I know. But how does what you said is related to OP? The letters I mentioned are about the Promised One, and in a way related to OP.

 

[firedragon]

I already quoted 2:210. God "comes to them".

Who are them, and where are they? In the sky? No, they are people on earth. God comes to them. You just need to ponder on the verses. Not everything literally has to be there, but you need to think, and used logical deduction to understand the verses.

Lol. No. It doesn't say that. Sis, someone duped you.

It says "Are they waiting for God to come to them shadowed in clouds with the angels?"

So you misquoted the Quran, twice. This is cherry picking from the Quran, then cherry picking two words from the sentence.

It says "are they waiting" not "God comes". So what you said is not true. You were insulting me like an arabic expert, but it seems you have no clue. Kind of strange.

Tell me. What does it mean when someone says "Hal" as in second "Ha", "Alif" and "Lam"?