The Resurrection of Christ

[ForeverFaithful]

beating a dead horse here,

How do you discount the ressurection,if you don't believe/support it if you do.

Out of all the "Messiahs" of the first century only Jesus has a world religion based on him,

I've never read of any of the other first century messiahs being linked to a ressurection, the apostlesn who were cowardly during their lives were able to hop on boats and risk their lives for the gospels, people high in the Jewish society abandoned their beliefs to follow Christ, through all this persuection we have the witnesses of the martyrs, so my question really is, what more do you want?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

True-believer syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nakosis]

beating a dead horse here,

How do you discount the ressurection,if you don't believe/support it if you do.

Out of all the "Messiahs" of the first century only Jesus has a world religion based on him,

I've never read of any of the other first century messiahs being linked to a ressurection, the apostlesn who were cowardly during their lives were able to hop on boats and risk their lives for the gospels, people high in the Jewish society abandoned their beliefs to follow Christ, through all this persuection we have the witnesses of the martyrs, so my question really is, what more do you want?

Yes, but Christianity was promoted by Rome who went out to conquer much of the world and enforce acceptance of it's belief. Without Constantine and his vision of Christ. Christianity probably would have died out. Constantine made the effort to gather and preserve what documentation they could regarding Jesus.

He somehow connected his success to this vision to Jesus. It were the Chi-Rho symbol comes from.

 

[outhouse]

Christianity probably would have died out.

Nope

Constantine just helped accelerate it.

By 325 AD it had a wide following growing fast

 

[outhouse]

Constantine made the effort to gather and preserve what documentation they could regarding Jesus

False

there were many collectors at the time of scripture, he just called the Bishop who was a collector. He may have ordered 50 bibles but he had nothing to do with content of the NT

 

[outhouse]

Out of all the "Messiahs" of the first century only Jesus has a world religion based on him,

he had a idea based on the teachings of John the baptist as well as his own theology that started the movement, that others didnt have or even come close to. he just happened rto be the one that started something that would later work out.

I've never read of any of the other first century messiahs being linked to a ressurection,

ressurection was a theme for deities.

The writers needed something to make him stand a part from mortal men who were deified, something that would make him more special

what more do you want?

LOL Hows about something that isnt a mythical story in my opinion ,,,, to further a movement and give it credibility.


You forget during yeshuas lifetime he was not known by many, not a single word was ever written during his lifetime. Only after death people repeating oral tradition wrote about him that never knew or met or heard one word from him.

The NT authors all wrote about the growing movement and the man at the center of it.

 

[Dubio]

I can't post links yet but if you go to youtube and enter William Lane Craig vs. Bart Ehrmann Resurrection, you will see a pretty good debate about this. It will at least give you a perspective from both sides of the aisle.

 

[Nakosis]

False

there were many collectors at the time of scripture, he just called the Bishop who was a collector. He may have ordered 50 bibles but he had nothing to do with content of the NT

Don't you think contacting the Bishop was effort? You think he had no influence on Christianity? Really?

I said nothing about the contents of the NT.
So what did I state that was false?

 

[waitasec]

How do you discount the ressurection,if you don't believe/support it if you do.

how do i or why?

how? it's easy i just do
why? because it is very very unlikely that and it's a ridiculous and an immoral notion.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

beating a dead horse here,

How do you discount the ressurection,if you don't believe/support it if you do.

Out of all the "Messiahs" of the first century only Jesus has a world religion based on him,

I've never read of any of the other first century messiahs being linked to a ressurection, the apostlesn who were cowardly during their lives were able to hop on boats and risk their lives for the gospels, people high in the Jewish society abandoned their beliefs to follow Christ, through all this persuection we have the witnesses of the martyrs, so my question really is, what more do you want?

Objective proof and a logical philosophy, to answer your question. The problem is that the resurrection, or even the existence of Jesus, cannot be verified. The Bible is full of contradictions and errors. The 'gospel' changed constantly, from Paul until today. There's no solid ground to stand on. It's all metaphysical speculation, at best. And really there's nothing in your post that can't be found in other religions. And to address the topic of why did Christianity survive? Because, through the fact that it survived 300 years of persecution, it eventually became the religion of the empire.

 

[outhouse]

Don't you think contacting the Bishop was effort? You think he had no influence on Christianity? Really?

I said nothing about the contents of the NT.
So what did I state that was false?

Your twisting words to meet something you didnt state.

Constantine had a great influence on Christianity.

he did not however keep it from dieing out as you quoted and he did not collect and preserve anything.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Your twisting words to meet something you didnt state.

Constantine had a great influence on Christianity.

he did not however keep it from dieing out as you quoted and he did not collect and preserve anything.

If it wasn't for Constantine, Christianity would have nowhere near the influence or size that it does. And as for collecting artifacts and visiting locations of the gospels, Constantine didn't, but his mother Helena did.

 

[fallingblood]

beating a dead horse here,

How do you discount the ressurection,if you don't believe/support it if you do.

Out of all the "Messiahs" of the first century only Jesus has a world religion based on him,

I've never read of any of the other first century messiahs being linked to a ressurection, the apostlesn who were cowardly during their lives were able to hop on boats and risk their lives for the gospels, people high in the Jewish society abandoned their beliefs to follow Christ, through all this persuection we have the witnesses of the martyrs, so my question really is, what more do you want?

The Messiah was never meant to be resurrected. There was no reason for the Messiah to have to be resurrected. So that is why no other so called Messiahs were said to have been resurrected. Once a so called Messiah died, that was usually the end of them being considered the Messiah.

Jesus was simply lucky. He had followers that refused to believe that everything they followed was wrong. And then he was lucky enough that his followers continued (which could partially be because he was an itinerate preacher, and it took time for news of his death to reach back to all of his followers) spreading the word, and it got picked up by someone who was literate, that being Paul. There was a lot of luck in all of this.

As for discounting the resurrection, we know that that simply doesn't occur. And if it did, it would be a miracle, and thus not historically supportable. Personally, I see more of a spiritual resurrection. But I won't argue it much as I can't prove it.

Finally, as for people dying for this message, and the like. We see this to be true with many ideologies. It doesn't mean it is right, just that those people truly believe in them.

 

[Nakosis]

Your twisting words to meet something you didnt state.

I think it's the other way around, but ok, whatever...

 

[Nakosis]

The Messiah was never meant to be resurrected. There was no reason for the Messiah to have to be resurrected. So that is why no other so called Messiahs were said to have been resurrected. Once a so called Messiah died, that was usually the end of them being considered the Messiah.

Jesus was simply lucky. He had followers that refused to believe that everything they followed was wrong. And then he was lucky enough that his followers continued (which could partially be because he was an itinerate preacher, and it took time for news of his death to reach back to all of his followers) spreading the word, and it got picked up by someone who was literate, that being Paul. There was a lot of luck in all of this.

As for discounting the resurrection, we know that that simply doesn't occur. And if it did, it would be a miracle, and thus not historically supportable. Personally, I see more of a spiritual resurrection. But I won't argue it much as I can't prove it.

Finally, as for people dying for this message, and the like. We see this to be true with many ideologies. It doesn't mean it is right, just that those people truly believe in them.

Yes, if what you are saying is that Jesus wasn't the Messiah the OT had in mind. I think the gospel of Matthew makes the effort to make the connection though.

However if you accept the gospel account of things it seems clear that Jesus thought he was or had the authority of God's son.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

he had a idea based on the teachings of John the baptist as well as his own theology that started the movement, that others didnt have or even come close to. he just happened rto be the one that started something that would later work out.

what evidence do you have that John the Baptist start anything?

resurrection was a theme for deities.

The writers needed something to make him stand a part from mortal men who were deified, something that would make him more special

the idea that resurrection was a common theme is some I hear a lot with little proof of it, plus it doesn't explain why the other messiahs don't have that attribute. Here's a comparison that cites its sources Investigating the Similarities between Jesus and Pagan Figures

Second if the writers wanted Jesus to be exalted to be better then other people, why would they have him die on a cross beside two theives or prayer for God to relive him of His death on the Cross? It's a nice accusation but it doesn't add up

LOL Hows about something that isnt a mythical story in my opinion ,,,, to further a movement and give it credibility.

That sounds like a cop out, you can discredit anything by simplify rejecting it that way, likewise I could reject the earth being round by simply calling all sources that say otherwise as myths or conspiracies, I believe there is a group who does such.

You forget during yeshuas lifetime he was not known by many, not a single word was ever written during his lifetime. Only after death people repeating oral tradition wrote about him that never knew or met or heard one word from him.

The NT authors all wrote about the growing movement and the man at the center of it.

By the NT authors you mean Matthew Mark Luke and John, Paul wrote concerning Christian churchs and cited authorities who had witnessed Christ's life and ressurection (1 Cor 15:6). Many scholars believe there were gospels prior to the 4 Canon Gospels, but we can deine that too if you'd like. John's gospel is so centred on him that it was likely written by himself or a contempary, seeing as the synoptic gospels have a different flavour, meaning it was written by someone who had either heard straight from the Apostle, or from the Apostle, so how do you claim we have unreliable sources?

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Objective proof and a logical philosophy, to answer your question. The problem is that the resurrection, or even the existence of Jesus, cannot be verified. The Bible is full of contradictions and errors. The 'gospel' changed constantly, from Paul until today. There's no solid ground to stand on. It's all metaphysical speculation, at best. And really there's nothing in your post that can't be found in other religions. And to address the topic of why did Christianity survive? Because, through the fact that it survived 300 years of persecution, it eventually became the religion of the empire.

What proof do you have for any interpolation that is more serious then a mere scribal error or a slight change in emphasis? I've posted a link above that discounts the similarities between Christ and pagan dieties, after reading the Book The Pagan Christ, I was giggling, the points made were so superfical and even unsupported that even if they all were write (Like Mary (common name in 1st century Israel) was actually taken from the name of Horus' mother) what would it prove? God gave us a sense of our sinfulness and need for him

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

What proof do you have for any interpolation that is more serious then a mere scribal error or a slight change in emphasis? I've posted a link above that discounts the similarities between Christ and pagan dieties, after reading the Book The Pagan Christ, I was giggling, the points made were so superfical and even unsupported that even if they all were write (Like Mary (common name in 1st century Israel) was actually taken from the name of Horus' mother) what would it prove? God gave us a sense of our sinfulness and need for him

There's many, many errors and contradictions in the Bible, and many books and websites to help point them all out. Some of these are minor, but there are major ones that simply cannot be dismissed out of hand. And I've also seen theologians and pastors rebuttals of said contradictions, and they are found lacking. I don't want to list all the ones that I take great issue with here, but what I will do is, over the course of time, start threads dealing with each one in turn. That way we don't get bogged down on one thread trying to deal with several issues.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

There's many, many errors and contradictions in the Bible, and many books and websites to help point them all out. Some of these are minor, but there are major ones that simply cannot be dismissed out of hand. And I've also seen theologians and pastors rebuttals of said contradictions, and they are found lacking. I don't want to list all the ones that I take great issue with here, but what I will do is, over the course of time, start threads dealing with each one in turn. That way we don't get bogged down on one thread trying to deal with several issues.

Alright I'll keep an eye open, however upon visiting the Biblical contradictory sites I was disappointed at the lack of context

 

[outhouse]

what evidence do you have that John the Baptist start anything?

Who do you think jesus learned from? who baptized him?

the idea that resurrection was a common theme is some I hear a lot with little proof of it,

same goes for yeshua ,, NO proof

why would they have him die on a cross beside two theives or prayer for God to relive him of His death on the Cross?

thats not added legend but more historical. he did tick off the romans and was put to death on a cross.

you can discredit anything by simplify rejecting it that way

no im discrediting something that just doesnt happen to anyone or anything.

By the NT authors you mean Matthew Mark Luke and John, Paul wrote concerning Christian churchs and cited authorities who had witnessed Christ's life and ressurection (1 Cor 15:6). Many scholars believe there were gospels prior to the 4 Canon Gospels, but we can deine that too if you'd like. John's gospel is so centred on him that it was likely written by himself or a contempary, seeing as the synoptic gospels have a different flavour, meaning it was written by someone who had either heard straight from the Apostle, or from the Apostle, so how do you claim we have unreliable sources

First you have to understand what a scholarship is

Next by follwing these methods we critically examine these books to pull out what is history and what is dogma.

Either way, there is not a gospel written by anyone who ever knew , met or heard a word from jesus.

jesus came from a highly illiterate area and most of what we know was written 30 year after his death from oral tradition, less paul who never witnessed jesus alive.