1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Restitution Of All Things

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by FineLinen, May 10, 2019.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth
    Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."

    The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643)
    Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life," then "age," "lifetime."

    Elliot's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46)

    Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios-it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

    Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels)

    Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting-nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
    The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)

    The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693)

    ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as 'forever,' means in itself no more than 'for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean 'from eternity' but 'of old' Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)

    Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657)

    Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.

    Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59).

    The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.' Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.

    Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198)

    In Dr. Farrar's book, Mercy and Judgment, (p. 378)
    "Since aion meant 'age,' aionios means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant 'eternity,' which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek- aionios could still mean only 'belonging to eternity' and not 'lasting through it."

    The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, (Vol. 4, p. 641)

    "The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the concept of eternity as timelessness." Page 655: "The O.T. has not developed a special term for eternity." Page 645: "The use of the word aion in the N.T. is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means long, distant, uninterrupted time. The intensifying plural occurs frequently in the N.T. but it adds no new meaning."

    Dr. Edward Plumptre, an eschatologist

    "I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited."

    Time and Eternity by G. T. Stevenson, (p. 63)

    "Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time it appears, very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term."

    Professor Herman Oldhausen, German Lutheran theologian

    "The Bible has no expression for endlessness. All the Biblical terms imply or denote long periods."

    Professor Knappe of Halle wrote

    "The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is not found in any of the ancient languages."

    An Alphabetical Analysis by Charles H. Welch (Editor of The Berean Expositor and a man well versed in Greek), (Vol. 1, p. 279)

    "Eternity is not a Biblical theme." (Vol. 1, p. 52), "What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation."

    Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says

    "Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration."

    The Complete Works of Falvius Josephus.

    Josephus obviously did not consider anionios to be "everlasting," seeing that he uses the word to represent the period of time between the giving of the law of Moses and that of his own writing [clearly not an eternity] . He also assigns aionios to the period of imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans [clearly he was not imprisoned for an eternity] , and also for the period during which Herod's temple stood [since Herod's temple was not even standing at the time Josephus wrote, it too proves that Josephus did not mean 'eternity' when he wrote 'aionios'] .

    Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of anionios diastema

    "an eonian interval." How many intervals do you know of that are "endless" or "eternal?"

    Saint Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3
    "Satan's kingdom is aeonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."

    Saint Justin Martyr, in the Apol. (p. 57)

    Used the word aionios repeatedly: aionion kolasin...all ouchi chiliontaete periodon, "eonian chastening but a period, not a thousand years," or as some translate this clause "but a period of a thousand years only." Hence, to Justin Martyr, aionios was certainly not "endless."

    Dr. O.B. Jenkins

    Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in <em>aionios</em>: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English[/B]
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    54,894
    Ratings:
    +18,193
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Those sorts of guilt trips don't move me. God didn't have to have Jesus' blood shed, he could have done it another way, but he himself and himself alone chose such a thing. If he wanted to shed his son's blood and his son agreed that's on them. They get no pity or sympathy from me due to their insane lust for blood.
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Dear Wolf: Rest assured, the Father still loves you & considers His Life laid down for you worth it all.

     
    #163 FineLinen, Jul 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    54,894
    Ratings:
    +18,193
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    It certainly isn't unheard of for an abuser to have feelings of love towards those they abuse. That doesn't, however, mean they are deserving of getting those feelings of loved returned (though it can happen).
    And, BTW, the Father didn't lie down his life, the Son did.
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Dear Wolf: The Father of all fathers did indeed lay down His life for us, & the Son who is in the bosom of the Father was the expression of it!
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    1. “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”

      Liberated/ delivered/ set free= eleutheroo

      Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope

      “For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope…”

      And the hope is>>>

      "The whole of created life shall be delivered from the bondage of change and decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    54,894
    Ratings:
    +18,193
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Couldn't have, because he didn't die, the Bible is clear is was his son, and the idea of the trinity came from those Jesus warned about who would come after him and claim to speak in his name.
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    I AM A CONVINCED UNIVERSALIST -Dr. Wm. Barclay

    I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.

    Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery."

    Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence.

    Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.

    But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.

    First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.

    Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.

    Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.

    Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God.

    -William Barclay: A Spiritual Autobiography, pg 65-67, William B Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, 1977-
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Search= eternal hell =

    "Your search query has yielded no results. Please modify your query and try again."

    No more let sins and sorrows grow,
    nor thorns infest the ground;
    he comes to make his blessings flow
    far as the curse is found,
    far as the curse is found,
    far as, far as the curse is found. -Isaac Watts-

    Curse= katanathema=

    By metonymy: accursed thing put to the thing announced.

    “The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age.” -The Message-

    Age after age after age

    Every created thing ( παν κτισμα — pān ktisma ). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation ( κτισις — ktisis ) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. -N.T. Word Pictures-
     
    #170 FineLinen, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Concerning Aion and Aionios

    The most commonly used Greek-English lexicons used today by Christians are those by Thayer (1886) and by Arndt and Gingrich (1957). The definitions given for the noun, aion, and the adjective, aionios, are widely accepted as authoritative and determinative for the teaching of everlasting punishment. This becomes for many believers a strong bulwark against taking scriptural passages such as John 12:32; Romans 5:18,19; 11:32-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; 2 Corinthians 5:14; Ephesians 1:10,11; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:20; 1 Timothy 2:4; 4:9,10; and 1 John 2:2, at face value. What is claimed for Matthew 25:46 or 2 Thessalonians 1:9, for example, is seen as limiting the meaning of the former passages.

    Concerning the noun, aion, however, both lexicons (and all other such works) allow for an interpretation that would harmonize with the teaching of eventual, universal salvation.

    Thayer’s lexicon gives as its first definition of aion the sense of “age.” This is the second definition (of four) given in the more recent lexicon edited by Arndt and Gingrich. Hence a passage such as Matthew 12:32 could be understood as referring to the present age and the age to come, which would not, in itself, keep us from taking Romans 3:21-24 and 5:12-19 in reference to universal justification.

    But in both of these lexicons, the adjective, aionios, is presented as having three meanings, in none of which the limiting sense of “age” is carried over from the noun. The adjective, it is claimed, means: (1) without beginning; or (2) without end; or (3) without beginning or end.

    This may strike others, as it does me, as a rather dubious development of an adjective’s meaning in relation to its noun form. But apart from that, this threefold definition simply does not work in several New Testament passages (and many other passages in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint).

    The usages of aionios in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; and Philemon 15, seem especially puzzling in view of the claims of these two lexicons.

    It certainly is difficult to understand how the keeping of a secret can have no beginning, and indeed if the secret is revealed, we must assume its being kept as a secret has come to an end. No wonder the KJV of Romans 16:25 reads “since the world began,” even though the Greek speaks of “times” described as aionios.The RV is more faithful to the threefold definition, referring to a mystery kept “through times eternal” but now manifested, but that has the great disadvantage of making no sense whatever if these times are to be understood as either without beginning or without end, or, even more puzzling, without beginning and end.

    In such cases, Bible commentators generally ignore the threefold definition given in the lexicons and make their own for these particular passages. In the NICNT volume on Romans, John Murray explains that “times eternal” refers “to the earlier ages of this world’s history” (THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS, vol.2, p.241). Such ages would obviously have both a beginning and end.

    Notice how A. T. Robertson handles the adjective in his WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. In commenting on Matthew 25:46 he follows the threefold definition given above, writing: “The word aionios . . . means either without beginning or without end or both” (vol.1, p.202). But in commenting on Titus 1:2 he insists that the words “before times eternal” refer “Not to God’s purpose before time began . . . but to definite promises (Rom.9:4) made in time.” Here he explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597). Some other commentators may try to explain that Paul is referring to something that God promised in “eternity past” but for most of us it does seem difficult to grasp any meaning in the idea of a promise being made and kept without any beginning of its being made.
    In the multi volume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208).

    This is not to suggest any particular agreement with all these various attempts to define aion and aionios. In fact, the confusion created by these attempts to preserve some sense of everlastingness in these terms makes the attempts rather suspicious. Putting all the evidence of the usage of these terms in the New Testament together, it seems to me that the threefold definition of aionios as signifying without beginning, or without end, or without beginning and end, must be dismissed as inadequate at the very least. Furthermore, to add further definitions that are not at all clear in themselves, as Sasse does, only adds to the confusion.

    Of all widely used, modern attempts to define these terms, I have found the concluding definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) most helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28). -Dean Hough-
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    "Judgment without mercy"=

    "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."

    Justice -George MacDonald-

    Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

    "Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

    Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.
    The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--

    To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time

    Let us consider the true meaning of the words "aion" and "aionios".

    These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting," for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for "aion" means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective "aionios" means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and NEVER "everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.....

    NOTE:

    The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"--Canon Farrar -

    "The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages."--Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

    " 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, "that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by 'olam' (the Hebrew word corresponding to "aion"), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity."

    The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness(vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

    So the secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks.--(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

    ...Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase "eternal life" (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God's commandment is life eternal,--ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.--1 John 1:2, 20.

    Quality & Quantity

    Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus "eternal" punishment is one thing, and "everlasting" punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for "everlasting" the word "eternal" in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for "eternal" in strictness has no beginning.

    Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

    Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited--nay, a very limited duration--to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be "for ever," to be "everlasting" (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being "for ever with the Lord"--these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

    Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

    As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)--in common use among the Jews in our Lord's time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point--these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

    Thus

    The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-

    The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-

    In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."

    In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."

    The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-

    In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."

    Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-

    And David's seed is to endure "for ever," his throne "for ever," his house "for ever;" nay, the passover is to endure "for ever;" and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be "dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us."

    So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)

    Christ's Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

    And Christ's kingdom is to last "for ever," yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.--(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

    NOTE:

    Thus Josephus calls "aeonian," the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

    Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

    Further, if this translation of aionios as "eternal," in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

    In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the "eternities." We can comprehend what "eternity" is, but what are the "eternities?" You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: "Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities."

    In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come."

    Our Lord's words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, "the harvest is the end of the eternity," i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

    Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, "the cares," not of "this world," but "the cares of this eternity choke the word."

    In Luke 16:8, "The children of this world," should be "the children of this eternity."

    In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, "upon whom the ends of the world are come," should be: "the ends of the eternities."

    Take next, Gal. 1:4: "That He might deliver us from this present evil world," should run thus: "from this present evil eternity."

    In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: "Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity."

    And "Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested," should read, on the popular view, "at the end of the eternities."

    Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

    Difficulties

    1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

    2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

    3. How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and beyond?--ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.--(see Sept. Ex. 15:18...Dan. 12:3...Micah 4:5)

    4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?--Matt. 13:39-40-49;...Matt. 24:3...Matt. 28:20...1 Cor. 10:11...Hebr. 9:26.

    5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19...Acts 3:21...Rom. 12:2...1 Cor. 1:20...1 Cor. 2:6...1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.

    If Aion Is Not Infinite

    But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?"

    Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

    They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of "the ages." This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

    Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking "what should be the sign of the end of the world." It should be the end of the "age;" the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

    In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the "world," but of the "age," an important change.

    So John 17:3, "this is life eternal," should be "the life of the ages," i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

    Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, "eternal salvation" should be "aeonian" or of the ages; "eternal redemption" is the redemption "of the ages;" the eternal covenant is the "covenant of the ages," the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

    In Eph. 3:11, "the eternal purpose" is really the purpose of "the ages," i.e., worked out in "the ages."

    In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, "until all the generations of the age of the ages." Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering "throughout all ages."

    In 1 Cor. 10:11 "the ends of the world" are the "ends of the ages." In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated "world," it should be "age' or "ages" in all cases.

    And here it is impossible to avoid asking how--assuming that aion does mean "world" in these cases--how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as "everlasting?" If it mean "world," then the adjective should be "worldly," "of the world." And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering "age."
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    #177 FineLinen, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    Dear Northsouth: I love the God whose plan from day 1 is the Restitution of the all. His chords are breaking in upon us as we are tuned to His spontaneous vibrations.

     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    386
    Ratings:
    +12
    Religion:
    non denominational
    The Judgment of God -John Gavazonni-

    I dare say that, for the average person, the thought of facing the judgment of God is not a pleasant one. Even with those who, by their own estimation, expect to be greeted with glowing commendation by the One who has the final say as to the worth of our works, beneath their facade of self-righteousness, lies an insecurity that drives their attempts at self-assurance: create said facade so it, in effect, will speak back to them, "see all the good things you have amassed; they prove you're a good person whose goodness will be recognized by God." It's the constant pressure of keeping such insecurity suppressed that made the Pharisees of old, and makes the contemporary versions, so really miserable and unattractive.>>>>

    The Judgment of God

    Index Of Writings Of John Gavazzoni
     
Loading...