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Featured The Relativity of God

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by The Reverend Bob, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Okay Christians and others, let us interpret this verse together and see what we come of it.

    The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    John 3:8
     
  2. KAT-KAT

    KAT-KAT Well-Known Member

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    Without cheating by letting Google influence my opinion...

    "Much like the wind is pretty much invisible, so are the true motives to the world, of Christians"??
     
  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Oh i like that verse. Great reminder



    • The wind blows where it wants
    (i talk about the bible and there are doubters)


    • but can not tell from where it comes
    ( they are idiots or lost souls same thing)

    • so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    (Agree with me on the previous 2 and now you really understand!)

    There thats about it! I generally have covered most of the possible solutions!!!

    Is that it?

    Oh hell no not even wrong.
     
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  4. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    That's not relativity. That is mystery. The Spirit moves in ways we cannot fathom.

    A thief and murderer, looks to Jesus. The High Priest condemns Him to death. Why does the Spirit move in some, but not in others? No one can come to Jesus, except the Father draws them. Why are some drawn, but not others?

    God is immutable and unchanging. Our perceptions may be fuzzy, but He is not.
     
  5. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    Maybe I should have named the thread "The Fuzzyness of God"

    Fuzzy concept - Wikipedia
     
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  6. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
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    From its context, the author of this Gospel seems to be arguing that spiritual things are not logically or physically comprehensible. Before these verses Jesus explains to Nicodemus that he must be "born again" to enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus is understandably perplexed and asks how this is possible. Jesus responds with:

    So the whole point seems to be that the fleshly/earthly world or dimension and the spiritual/supernatural dimension are completely separate. Spiritual things, therefore, cannot be understood using the logic of how things work in the natural world.
     
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  7. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson

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    Not sure I know what you are looking for but the Hebrew word for spirit is ruach. The Greek pneuma (i.e. pneumonia / pneumatic). They can also be translated as wind, breath.

    Jehovah God is a spirit being.
     
  8. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    But it's not God that is fuzzy.. it is us.. ;)
    At least, our perceptions..
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    As an outsider... the verse seems to mean:

    It is impossible to predict "Spirit"? It's the same for those who are "born of the Spirit"?
     
  10. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    In its essence spiritual matters are mysterious to common sense and worldly ambitions. If you have been born again in spirit then so you may appear to those who have not. Any spiritual leader should know this.
     
  11. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    What does it tell us about the nature of the Spirit.
     
  12. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    I see the verse as saying in a deep way that the Spirit is fundamentally inscrutable. I have several ways of understanding this personally including the idea of spirituality being about psychological self-transcendance, of intuition vs sensation and the "landscapes of truth" these two cognitive functions create, about what it is like to live in a Universe that is ordered on systems which explore the boundary between order and chaos.
     
  13. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    How would this fundamentally inscrutable Spirit reveal itself to individuals?
     
  14. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    If I take your question as a request to reflect on the notion suggested in the title of your thread...the Spirit is the landscape we share when we move on a "divine" path and who God is is just as mysterious in this realm as God is in the realm of common understanding. God is a deep, subjective experience of ones own personal value such that in having had that experience one comes to a long lasting satisfaction with who one is and can accept ones suffering accordingly. It also brings with it a deep appreciation for otherness and the flaws in ones self serve to happily provide one with humble compassion for the flaws in others.
     
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  15. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    In my re-response I mention that of the second birth itself and the deep, subjective experience of self-transcendence. You experience yourself in all your frailty, error and ignorance as a deeply valuable element of a greater reality. For me this literally included a sense of a powerful other being in some cases while in other cases it did not.

    My experience seems to be a variation of the theme of that described in the story of Abram/Abraham. I too have a spiritual name granted as a result of an experience with encountering God in a dream. I do not publicly share this name in part because it is not anything of objective significance to others.
     
  16. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Tao.
     
  17. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Is there anything not born of the Word of God?

    There are an infinite number of things acting on one another. Many infinities. -- Scientists are still wrestling with General Relativity's local realism in relation to Quantum Physics' nonlocality, partly for this reason.

    It's very hard to determine what even the smallest thing will do, with any certainty. Only One has the capacity for the knowledge of all things.
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The stories of Nicodemus and the final appearance of John the Baptist reflects on the faith of many who came to believe in Jesus through the signs he performed (earlier in 2:23-35). The final remark of the narrator in chapter 2: "he himself knew what was in each person," and the introduction of Nicodemus to the story in 3:1: 'Now there was a person, one of the Pharisees" are closely linked. The two stories form a dyptich; both contain a narrative in which the two characters are both firmly entrenched in Judaism.

    Both stories open with the claim that Jesus is the unique revealer of the heavenly, and then move to the logical conclusions of that claim. Salvation or condemnation comes from the acceptance or refusal of this revelation.

    In the Nicodemus pericope, his misunderstanding of what Jesus reveals allows Jesus to explain further. He says, "that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." To be born of flesh means to trust what one can observe and control -- making judgments on what one senses in the world about one. Birth in the Spirit brings one into a different way of seeing and understanding. Jesus urges Nicodemus not to marvel at his teaching; rebirth must take place through a gift "from above." Jesus then resorts to a small parable, based on the play between meanings of pneuma. It can mean "wind" or "spirit." Jesus begins with the physical wind, which one can observe. It's a mystery. One can observe it, but one cannot claim to have discovered its origin or destination. On the basis of this observation, Jesus says that it is the same way with those born of Spirit. The Spirit, like the wind, is entirely beyond control and comprehension of human beings. It breathes into this world from another world. Since Nicodemus' response is confused, Jesus chides him by reminding him that he is a "teacher of Israel," yet doesn't understand these things. The idea that life in the Spirit transcends the understanding of this world isn't new in Jewish teaching. It serves to tie Jesus' revelation as an extension of Judaic mystery teachings.
     
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  19. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    I love that explanation! It actually makes sense.
     
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  20. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    You always come up with the hardest questions. Tons of respect! I couldn't begin to think what it might mean and Google had many different answers. I think that sojourner has the best answer.
     
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