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The reasons why hundreds of Pagans converted to Christianity

outhouse

Atheistically
well, if you doubt the truthfulness of Gospels you should also doubt the truthfulness of the works written by Thucidides, Titus Livius, Diodorus Siculus, Plutarchus, etc etc

why you don't doubt the existence of Alexander the Great, but you doubt what is written in the acts of apostles?

You keep taking me out of context due to your ignorance on the topics we are trying to talk about.

The gospels have historical issues, because the unknown authors were far removed from Jesus and his inner cirlcle. They belonged to another culture, from another place far away from Galilee, who found importance in the Hellenistic mythology that grew after his death.


If you dont like the truth in history, dont bring it up!
 

Phil25

Active Member
Then pick one thing at a time you dont understand.

Dont load me up, this is about what you dont know, not about what I dont know.

You are claiming something which you cant prove. All I asked was sources for your claims, which you havent been able to show.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The article says, there are plenty of passages, which have been historically proved correct. How do you dismess them?

We dont dismiss them.

It adds to what we know.

It also does not go against what we know. Nor does it contradict what Im saying.

There is very little we can say for certain about historical jesus. And there are grey areas, that are debateable where I do have my own opinion.
 

Phil25

Active Member
We dont dismiss them.

It adds to what we know.

It also does not go against what we know. Nor does it contradict what Im saying.

There is very little we can say for certain about historical jesus. And there are grey areas, that are debateable where I do have my own opinion.

Then you cant dismiss Acts, as historically not reliable.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You are claiming something which you cant prove. All I asked was sources for your claims, which you havent been able to show.

Like I said.

Take a sentance you want to know more about and I will provide a source.

But dont talk about prove. In that same context, you cannot prove little about the bible that happened.

I debate the evidence with mythicist who are authors and sharp, I fight on your side that a historical Jesus existed.


maybe one day you will learn, historical jesus is not biblical jesus
 

Phil25

Active Member
Like I said.

Take a sentance you want to know more about and I will provide a source.

But dont talk about prove. In that same context, you cannot prove little about the bible that happened.

I debate the evidence with mythicist who are authors and sharp, I fight on your side that a historical Jesus existed.


maybe one day you will learn, historical jesus is not biblical jesus
Source for this one.
We know Jesus took over Johns movement,
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Then you cant dismiss Acts, as historically not reliable.

I take it you can read, the article explained it very clear for you to pull this pucky.

Its not all or nothing :facepalm:

And we can dismiss certain aspects. If you inew what you were actually talking about, and knew this topic you would know, Paul decsribes himself differently then Acts does.

Acts and Paul contradicts each other. I trust Paul on most of these contradictions.

Historical reliability of the Acts of the Apostles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A key contested issue is the historicity of Luke's depiction of Paul. According to the majority viewpoint, Acts described Paul differently from how Paul describes himself, both factually and theologically

Passages of disputed historical accuracy[edit]

Acts 5:33-39: Theudas[edit]

Main article: Theudas § The Theudas problem
Acts 5:33-39 gives an account of speech by the 1st century Pharisee Gamaliel, in which he refers to two first century movements. One of these was led by Theudas.[27] Afterwards another was led by Judas the Galilean.[28] Josephus placed Judas at the Census of Quirinius of the year 6 and Theudas under the procurator Fadus[29] in 44-46. Assuming Acts refers to the same Theudas as Josephus, two problems emerge. First, the order of Judas and Theudas is reversed in Acts 5. Second, Theudas's movement comes after the time when Gamaliel is speaking. However, it is possible that Theudas in Josephus is not the same one as in Acts, or that it is Josephus who has his dates confused.[30] The early Christian writer Origen referred to a Theudas active before the birth of Jesus,[31] although it is possible that this simply draws on the account in Acts.
Acts 2:41 and 4:4 - Peter's addresses[edit]

Acts 4:4 speaks of Peter addressing an audience, resulting in the number of Christian converts rising by 5,000 people. A Professor of the New Testament Robert M. Grant says "Luke evidently regarded himself as a historian, but many questions can be raised in regard to the reliability of his history […] His ‘statistics’ are impossible; Peter could not have addressed three thousand hearers [e.g. in Acts 2:41] without a microphone, and since the population of Jerusalem was about 25-30,000, Christians cannot have numbered five thousand [e.g. Acts 4:4]."[32]
Grant's estimate of the population of Jerusalem relied on an influential study by Jeremias in 1943.[33][34] However, Grant does not mention that Jeremias calculated a far higher population figure for festival seasons such as passover, at which he calculated Jerusalem would contain up to 125,000 pilgrims.[35] Furthermore, the lower estimate of Jeremias is significantly lower than the lowest of the moderate to high estimates made by Wilkinson in 1974 (70,398 under Herod the Great),[36] Broshi in 1976 (60,000),[37] Maier in 1976 (50,000, with three times that many during festival seasons),[38] and Levine in 2002 (60,000-70,000).[39] Accordingly, Cousland notes that "recent estimates of the population of Jerusalem suggest something in the neighbourhood of a hundred thousand".[40]
Estimates for the number of Christians in the Roman empire by the end of the 1st century range widely from 7,500,[41] to more than 50,000.[42][43]
Acts 6:9: The province of Cilicia[edit]

The New International Version translation of Acts 6:9 mentions the Province of Cilicia during a scene allegedly taking place in mid-30s AD. The Roman province by that name had been on hiatus from 27 BC and was re-established by Emperor Vespasian only in 72 AD.[44] All other translations only mention the name of Cilicia, without referring to it as a province.
Acts 21:38: The sicarii and the Egyptian[edit]

In Acts 21:38, a Roman asks Paul if he was 'the Egyptian' who led a band of 'sicarii' (literally: 'dagger-men') into the desert. In both The Jewish Wars[45] and Antiquities of the Jews,[46] Josephus talks about Jewish nationalist rebels called sicarii directly prior to talking about The Egyptian leading some followers to the Mount of Olives. Richard Pervo believes that this demonstrates that Luke used Josephus as a source and mistakenly thought that the sicarii were followers of The Egyptian.[47][48]
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Acts 10:1: Roman troops in Caesarea[edit]

Acts 10:1 speaks of a Roman Centurion called Cornelius belonging to the "Italian regiment" and stationed in Caesarea. Robert Grant claims that during the reign of Herod Agrippa, 41-44, no Roman troops were stationed in his territory.[49] Wedderburn likewise finds the narrative "historically suspect",[50] and in view of the lack of inscriptional and literary evidence corroborating Acts, historian de Blois suggests that the unit either did not exist or was a later unit which the author of Acts projected to an earlier time.[51]
Noting that the 'Italian regiment' is generally identified as cohors II Italica civium Romanorum, a unit whose presence in Judea is attested no earlier than 69 CE,[52] historian E Mary Smallwood observes that the events described from Acts 9:32 to chapter 11 may not be in chronological order with the rest of the chapter but actually take place after Agrippa's death in chapter 12, and that the "Italian regiment" may have been introduced to Caesarea as early as 44 CE.[53] Wedderburn notes this suggestion of chronological re-arrangement, along with the suggestion that Cornelius lived in Caesarea away from his unit.[54] Historians such as Bond,[55] Speidel,[56] and Saddington,[57] see no difficulty in the record of Acts 10:1.
Acts 15: The Council of Jerusalem[edit]

Main article: Council of Jerusalem § Historicity
The description of the 'Apostolic Council' in Acts 15, generally considered the same event described in Galatians 2,[58] is considered by some scholars to be contradictory to the Galatians account.[59] The historicity of Luke's account has been challenged,[60][61][62] and was rejected completely by some scholars in the mid to late 20th century.[63] However, more recent scholarship inclines towards treating the Jerusalem Council and its rulings as a historical event,[64] though this is sometimes expressed with caution.[65]
Acts 24: Paul's trial[edit]

See also: Paul of Tarsus § Arrest and death
Paul's trial in Acts 24 has been described as 'incoherently presented'.[66][page needed]
Acts 15:16-18: James' speech[edit]

In Acts 15:16-18, James, the leader of the Christian Jews in Jerusalem, gives a speech where he quotes scriptures from the Greek Septuagint (Amos 9:11-12). Some believe this is incongruous with the portrait of James as a Jewish leader who would presumably speak Aramaic, not Greek. For instance, Richard I. Pervo notes: "The scriptural citation strongly differs from the MT [= Masoretic Text, the transmitted Hebrew Bible], which has nothing to do with the inclusion of gentiles. This is the vital element in the citation and rules out the possibility that the historical James (who would not have cited the LXX [= Septuagint]) utilized the passage."[67]
A possible explanation is that the Septuagint translation better made James's point about the inclusion of Gentiles as the people of God.[68] Dr. John Barnett stated that "Many of the Jews in Jesus' day used the Septuagint as their Bible".[69] Although Aramaic was a major language of the Ancient Near East, by Jesus's day Greek had been the lingua franca of the area for 300 years
 

outhouse

Atheistically
actually we know all the authors' names, including the authors of apocrypha.

:facepalm:

One more ignorant comment and im done with you.

The authore are all unknown.

The names were attributed long after composition. they do not name themselves. And it was common rhetoric to attribute works to famous people


You would also need to explain why luke/matthew would need to copy mark written to a roman audience.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
actually we know all the authors' names, including the authors of apocrypha.
No. We don't.
saint john was below the Cross when Jesus died
The "John" who allegedly wrote the gospel was not the John at the foot of the cross.
Three of them wrote in Aramaic.
No. They all wrote in Greek.

Perhaps it's you who have no idea about the origins of the gospels.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member

Yeah, it does.

The stories people tell themselves sometimes occasionally frighten me. I feel like I should be defending against this nonsense, but I doubt any minds will be changed and the battle isn't worth picking.

Instead, I think I'll just say to the OP to read this book or something. Perhaps then they'll be less painful historical revisionism, less mind-numbing ethnocentrism, and more genuine recognition that indigenous polytheisms have been actively and deliberately repressed by exclusivist monotheisms for centuries. And it's still happening today.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Dont you just love people with no biblical education at all, Remember when I started here :p

dear Outhouse, you are going off topic.
I understand what your thesis is: you want to affirm that Christianity was a creation of Hellenized Jews, and above all of Greek people. And it probably took place in Rome, Alexandria, Antioch etc....but not in Jerusalem
Do I deny it? I don't. Has it something to do with the thread?
No, it doesn't.
Because I don't care who wrote the Gospels. and when. All I care about is that the Gospels were so successful because they were against greed and money-hunger.

and that's the reason why lots of people converted to Christianity.
Evil was represented by the emperor at that time.
and becoming Christian would have meant to declare an ideological war to the emperor
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
dear Outhouse, you are going off topic.
I understand what your thesis is: you want to affirm that Christianity was a creation of Hellenized Jews, and above all of Greek people. And it probably took place in Rome, Alexandria, Antioch etc....but not in Jerusalem
Do I deny it? I don't. Has it something to do with the thread?
No, it doesn't.
Because I don't care who wrote the Gospels. and when. All I care about is that the Gospels were so successful because they were against greed and money-hunger.

and that's the reason why lots of people converted to Christianity.
Evil was represented by the emperor at that time.
and becoming Christian would have meant to declare an ideological war to the emperor
The gospels became successful long after Xy became successful.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Christianity appeared to be going strongly (among those who followed it, that is), if not widespread, long before the Gospels were even written.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Christianity appeared to be going strongly (among those who followed it, that is), if not widespread, long before the Gospels were even written.

yes, what's your point? I don't understand the reason why all of you want to deny that the success of Christianity is exclusively due to the rejection of a money-hungry and unjust economic system.

All historians say that Christianity transformed society and economy radically
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
ChristineES said:
Christianity appeared to be going strongly (among those who followed it, that is), if not widespread, long before the Gospels were even written.

Rodney Stark, Ph.D., sociology, and the author of over 50 books, some of them on religion, wrote a best-selling book that is titled "The Rise of Christianity." The book is not anti-Christian at all, and Stark became a Christian after he wrote the book. Stark estimates that in 100 A.D., there were 7,530 Christian in the entire world. That was not very many. Stark provide various evidences such as archaeology, and papyrology, that show a very small Christian presence in the world in the first century A.D.

Noted Christian Bible scholar N.T. Wright said that "this belief was held by a tiny group who, for the first two or three generations at least, could hardly have mounted a riot in a village, let alone a revolution in an empire."
 
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