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The reality of human sexuality: Dr. Debra Soh

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Because the assertion that gender is not a societal construct relates to public affairs. You are erroneously asserting a falsehood that would imply it is incorrect for people to advocate on the grounds that gender is, at least in part, a societal construct.

You have even objected to "politicizing" which in itself is politicizing. You are advocating for your point of view. Nothing wrong in just that. However, you point of view is not internally consistent.


Re Us and them: i am not sure who us and them are. I only said that your post smells of it.
Obviously gender roles are social constructs. That's been pointed out earlier which you've obviously missed. So where does the "72 genders" come from?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
@Road Warrior
OMG...No comment.
Listen..I am a MtF person..you are free to express your views...but just know I am free to become what I am. When I had sex reassignment surgery I felt like a nightmare lasted 30 years was over.

I honestly don't care what the society thinks of me.
Ours is medical problem...not a social one.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Obviously gender roles are social constructs. That's been pointed out earlier which you've obviously missed. So where does the "72 genders" come from?
I don't remember enlarging or bolding any of my text.

I am not sure what you want. In the process of making and discussing your OP you made a specific claim. I was only addressing that specific claim.

Re "72 genders:"

We can categorize phenomena with various labels. How efficient and successful these methods are in communication is one way to establish a baseline for the practicality of such labels (hence why I think Atheism is better suited for thos who believe no god exists as opposed to lacking belief or having disbelief in god).

The 72 genders, (i think there may even be more) are merely definitions people have created in order to more precisely define, or so the users of such terms believe anyway, a person's gender. Do such terms achieve that purpose? Is such a purpose relevant in our society?

You, or even I, may not see the need for such distinctions but that doesn't then mean no need exists.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
@Road Warrior
OMG...No comment.
Listen..I am a MtF person..you are free to express your views...but just know I am free to become what I am. When I had sex reassignment surgery I felt like a nightmare lasted 30 years was over.

I honestly don't care what the society thinks of me.
Ours is medical problem...not a social one.
You are, indeed, free to be as you please. The only rule is not to hurt others while doing it.

Good idea about not caring what society thinks of you. It's not of their f'ing business.

Agreed on a medical problem, but probably not the way you think. The main point of Dr. Soh's commentary is not to push sexual reassignment on kids. Her data shows that most kids with gender dysphoria, about 60%, grow up to be happy, healthy homosexuals who are fine with their bodies.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
I don't remember enlarging or bolding any of my text.

I am not sure what you want. In the process of making and discussing your OP you made a specific claim. I was only addressing that specific claim.

Re "72 genders:"

We can categorize phenomena with various labels. How efficient and successful these methods are in communication is one way to establish a baseline for the practicality of such labels (hence why I think Atheism is better suited for thos who believe no god exists as opposed to lacking belief or having disbelief in god).

The 72 genders, (i think there may even be more) are merely definitions people have created in order to more precisely define, or so the users of such terms believe anyway, a person's gender. Do such terms achieve that purpose? Is such a purpose relevant in our society?

You, or even I, may not see the need for such distinctions but that doesn't then mean no need exists.
What "specific claim" are you referencing?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
@Road Warrior

This person was born with male genitalia and was called Lorenzo at birth. Now she had SRS and is called Olimpia. Can't you see Olimpia is a woman now and not a man any more?

 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
You are, indeed, free to be as you please. The only rule is not to hurt others while doing it.

Good idea about not caring what society thinks of you. It's not of their f'ing business.

Agreed on a medical problem, but probably not the way you think. The main point of Dr. Soh's commentary is not to push sexual reassignment on kids. Her data shows that most kids with gender dysphoria, about 60%, grow up to be happy, healthy homosexuals who are fine with their bodies.
We shouldn't "push" anything but the fact is that transsexuals still exist and transsexual youth still need treatment. The issue needs more research.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Sex and gender: Meanings, definition, identity, and expression
In general terms, "sex" refers to the biological differences between males and females, such as the genitalia and genetic differences. "Gender" is more difficult to define, but it can refer to the role of a male or female in society, known as a gender role, or an individual's concept of themselves, or gender identity.

Agreed! So we can agree that gender is a social construct with biology as only a part of the equation?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Thanks once again for posting a purely emotional argument including personal attacks. Sad.

Sooooo....only two genders? Good. Whew! I thought for sure some idiots would argue differently.

While I appreciate your zeal for science (which includes the data as well as the broader interpretations of the data), starting your argument referring to the opposition as "idiots" may have the effect of drawing emotional arguments. ;-)
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Agreed! So we can agree that gender is a social construct with biology as only a part of the equation?
"Gender" gets muddled. Gender roles is what we are actually talking about such as "the man is the breadwinner and the woman's place is in the home". That's a social construct and in the defintion. I fail to see why so many people have a problem understanding this point:

gen·der /ˈjendər/ noun
  1. either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
Note the second definition. That is a modern social construct and have no biological correlation to sex of the individual. It's about the psychology of the individual. Do you understand that over 90% of all people are straight? If 90% of human beings are biologically one thing, what would you call the other 10%?
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
While I appreciate your zeal for science (which includes the data as well as the broader interpretations of the data), starting your argument referring to the opposition as "idiots" may have the effect of drawing emotional arguments. ;-)
Some perspective please: That person was constantly trolling me and now, after he reported me, I've been asked to put him on ignore.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
We shouldn't "push" anything but the fact is that transsexuals still exist and transsexual youth still need treatment. The issue needs more research.
Disagreed. Heck, even straights are pushing. It's not one sex/gender, it's human. I've never claimed that transsexuals don't exist but I have quoted numbers. As for kids; that's the crux of Soh's research. She's advising against sexual reassignment for kids. She's advising counseling and letting them mature before making that decision since her data indicates over 60% of them develop into normal, stable homosexuals who aren't ashamed of their bodies.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Disagreed. Heck, even straights are pushing. It's not one sex/gender, it's human. I've never claimed that transsexuals don't exist but I have quoted numbers. As for kids; that's the crux of Soh's research. She's advising against sexual reassignment for kids. She's advising counseling and letting them mature before making that decision since her data indicates over 60% of them develop into normal, stable homosexuals who aren't ashamed of their bodies.
Disagreed with what? You believe in forcing transsexuals to undergo the wrong puberty because of statistics? Speaking for myself, I would've been quite happy to take hormone blockers and then start testosterone at 16 or so. Now I have to have chest surgery to remove those...things...that shouldn't have been there in the first place, along with all the other headaches that I could've been spared if I could've transitioned earlier. It's already been pointed out that this Soh person is not an expert in her field and has a political agenda. She doesn't know better than I do about my own needs. Healthcare should be patient driven and centered around the patient's needs, not some ideology. If I had her as doctor, I would've dumped her as a quack. Cis people really need to take a backseat when it comes to trans healthcare. It's not about you and never should've been. You should be listening to us and not the other way around. Our healthcare should not depend on your level of ignorance.
 

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
Disagreed with what? You believe in forcing transsexuals to undergo the wrong puberty because of statistics? Speaking for myself, I would've been quite happy to take hormone blockers and then start testosterone at 16 or so. Now I have to have chest surgery to remove those...things...that shouldn't have been there in the first place, along with all the other headaches that I could've been spared if I could've transitioned earlier. It's already been pointed out that this Soh person is not an expert in her field and has a political agenda. She doesn't know better than I do about my own needs. Healthcare should be patient driven and centered around the patient's needs, not some ideology. If I had her as doctor, I would've dumped her as a quack. Cis people really need to take a backseat when it comes to trans healthcare. It's not about you and never should've been. You should be listening to us and not the other way around. Our healthcare should not depend on your level of ignorance.
Sorry, I misread your first sentence about "push". I believe that kids who claim to be in the wrong body aren't capable of making a life-altering decision and that it is irresponsible for parents to start giving a 9 year old drugs to change their sex much less actually set them up for surgery. Let them mature and make that decision on their own at 18.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Disagreed. Heck, even straights are pushing. It's not one sex/gender, it's human. I've never claimed that transsexuals don't exist but I have quoted numbers. As for kids; that's the crux of Soh's research. She's advising against sexual reassignment for kids. She's advising counseling and letting them mature before making that decision since her data indicates over 60% of them develop into normal, stable homosexuals who aren't ashamed of their bodies.
Can't they also develop into normal, stable homosexuals (if that is the route they are going) with a later puberty?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Sorry, I misread your first sentence about "push". I believe that kids who claim to be in the wrong body aren't capable of making a life-altering decision and that it is irresponsible for parents to start giving a 9 year old drugs to change their sex much less actually set them up for surgery. Let them mature and make that decision on their own at 18.
What you "believe" about it is irrelevant. That's none of your business and you should mind your own. It doesn't involve you and you obviously don't even understand it. It's like abortion - we'd better off if everyone minded their damn business and let people make their own private medical decisions. If the kid decides not to pursue transition, they can stop the puberty blockers, which are temporary in the first place.
 
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