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The Real Story of Jesus

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cordoba, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Mary's Birth - Longer Version

    Prophet Zechariah's wife's sister had a daughter named Hannah. She was married to Imran, a leader of the Israelites. For many years the couple remained childless. Whenever Hannah saw another woman with a child, her longing for a baby increased. Although years had passed, she never lost hope. She believed that one day Allah would bless her with a child, on whom she would shower all her motherly love.

    She turned to the Lord of the heavens and the earth and pleaded with Him for a child. She would offer the child in the service of God's house, in the temple of Jerusalem. Allah granted her request. When she learned she was pregnant she was the happiest woman alive, and thanked Allah for His gift. Her overjoyed husband Imran also thanked Allah for His mercy.

    However, while she was pregnant her husband passed away. Hannah wept bitterly. Alas, 'Imran did not live to see their child for whom they had so longed. She gave birth to a girl, and again turned to Allah in prayer: "0 my Lord, I have delivered a female child, ... and the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge with You (Allah) for her and her offspring from Satan, the outcast. Surah 3: 36
     
  2. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    What is the point of this thread, cordoba? You aren't debating, you're just ignoring our insites and questions and presenting worthless and heavily biased websites that do nothing but repeat one another. What is your point here? You're saying this thread isn't about whether jesus existed, but yet the thread is "the real story of jesus." We are disagreeing with there even being a 'real' story, how does that not relate to the thread?
     
  3. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    The starting point on this thread is that Jesus peace be upon him lived around 20 centuries ago, and is meant to debate whether Jesus was a human being or not.

    Don't you think that your point of view can be the topic of another thread titled "Did Jesus really exist?"
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Cordoba, you are presenting wholly unevidenced Islamic narrative. That would be perfectly appropriate in the Islam forum, but this forum is designated for religious debates. Please respect the distinction and preach elsewhere.
     
  5. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect Deut. 10:19, religious debate is welcomed, and evidence of Jesus peace be upon him and his trip to Egypt has been presented on this thread, in addition to the Nag Hammadi library found in Egypt in 1945.

    Another piece of evidence that Jesus did exist are the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1947.

    QUOTE


    [size=-1]Those who have studied the scrolls have noticed a common theme prevalent throughout these manuscripts, that is, most of the pesher texts prophesies the coming of a "Teacher of Righteousness" who will be sent by God to the Jews. This "Teacher of Righteousness" will be opposed by the "Teacher of Lies" and the "Wicked Priest".[/size][size=-1][/size]

    [size=-1]These scrolls also predict the coming of two messiahs. These two messiahs are referred to as a[/size][size=-1][/size]

    [size=-1]1) priestly and a[/size][size=-1][/size] [size=-1]2) temporal messiah[/size]

    [size=-1]What we had here was a society of very devout Jews who were convinced that the time of the coming of the two messiahs was at hand, therefore, they set about preparing for their advent by detaching themselves from the mainstream society, and dedicating their lives to their worship and the preparation for their imminent arrival.[/size][size=-1][/size]

    UNQUOTE

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.htm
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Thank you for this response. It demonstrates perfectly that you have not the slightest understanding of what constitutes evidence, i.e., to argue
    • "we had here was a society of very devout Jews who were convinced that the time of the coming of the two messiahs was at hand",
    • therefore Jesus existed
    is a pathetic abuse of logic and reason. There is nothing in the gnostic manuscripts or the DSS that constitutes evidence of Jesus, and certainly nothing that validates the Islamic narrative. You are making a complete fool of yourself.

    By the way, for those who are (unlike Cordoba) interested in the relevant scholarship, let me suggestboth by Lawrence Schiffman.
     
  7. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Deut. 10:19

    Before jumping to conclusions, I suggest you may wish to read the book titled "The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gospel of Barnabas and The New Testament", by M.A. Yusseff.

    It was published in 1985 by American Trust Publications.

    Thanks by the way for the two links, and try to be a bit more calm.

    This is a friendly dialogue.

    All the best.
     
  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No jumping require. You 'logic' is absurd.
     
  9. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Not at all.

    If you read the article above, "The Dead Sea Scrolls" by Misheal Al-Kadhi, this is one interpretation of the Jewish prophecy:

    QUOTE


    [size=-1]The Jews had prophesies of two messiahs. The first was best known to them for his "religious" or "priestly" works which he would perform. The second was best known to them for his "kingly" works; his bringing of an epoch of peace.[/size]

    [size=-1]These two prophesies refer to Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh).[/size]

    [size=-1]Jesus (pbuh) was best know for his "priestly" works. However, he never lead an army, and he never established a kingdom or a government. Quite the opposite, he called to peace and submissiveness and to leave the rule of the land to others (Matthew 22:21). He told his followers that he yet had many things to teach them but they could not bear them yet and that another would be coming after him who would teach them the complete truth (John 16:7-14).[/size]

    [size=-1]Muhammad (pbuh) too began his ministry preaching submissivness and passiveness. However, his ministry was nurtured by God almighty to a point where it was able to defend itself and establish justice in the earth and abolish evil. His followers fought several wars in self defense and against injustice. The Islamic empire finally stretched from China to Spain and even those who did not follow Muhammad (pbuh) knew him well. However, what did they know him for? They knew him for his "kingly" actions and not for the "priestly" side of him that his followers knew.[/size]

    UNQUOTE

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.htm

    What confirms this point of view is that Jesus peace be upon him in The Gospel of John foretold the coming after him of The Paraclete. Though most of our Christian friends will claim that Jesus meant the Holy Spirity, in reality his description was of God's last Prophet, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

    http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-3-more.htm
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What a pathetic joke! Your 'proof' is some baseless and self-serving Islamic distortion of some 2nd and 1st century BCE eschatological expectations of some Judaic sect? :biglaugh: I'm sorry, Cordoba, but confused drivel about some fictive Levite Jesus is evidence of absolutely nothing?
     
  11. Dayv

    Dayv Member

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    Do you actually know what evidence is, Cordoba? Because you have yet to present anything more then someone else saying what you have already said. None of this is actual evidence or proof, it's just someone who seems to agree with you on this issue. That whole thing I mentioned earlier about just saying something not making it true, that applies to everyone, no matter how many people say it. As Duet said, this is all just unevidenced narritive.
     
  12. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    What is special about the Dead Sea Scrolls is that the Pauline Church was not able to hide them, like they did back at The Council of Nicea in 325, as they were discovered in 1947.

    What Misheal Al-Kadhi does in his article, and M.A. Yusseff in his book, is to analyze these historical documents (evidence for Dayv), and present the true story of Jesus, peace be upon him, free of the distortions introduced in the scriptures 1700 years ago.

    We can agree to disagree if you are not convinced.

    All the best.
     
  13. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    Right, to continue in chronological order after the birth of Mary, the daughter of Imran.

    When Mary was born, Prophet Zechariah, peace be upon him, was alive. His wife was the maternal aunt of Mary, and as Imran at that time had passed away, he became her Guardian:

    Zechariah Becomes Mary's Guardian

    Hannah had a big problem in reference to her promise to Allah, for females were not accepted into the temple, and she was very worried. Her sister's husband, Zechariah, comforted her, saying that Allah knew best what she had delivered and appreciated fully what she had offered in His service. She wrapped the baby in a shawl and handed it over to the temple elders.

    As the baby was a girl, the question of her guardianship posed a problem for the elders. This was a child of their late and beloved leader, and everyone was eager to take care of her. Zechariah said to the elders: "I am the husband of her maternal aunt and her nearest relation in the temple; therefore, I will be more mindful of her than all of you.

    As it was their custom to draw lots to solve disagreements, they followed this course. Each one was given a reed to throw into the river. They had agreed that whoever's reed remained afloat would be granted guardianship of the girl. All the reeds sank to the bottom except Zechariah's. With this sign, they all surrendered to the will of Allah and made him the guardian.
     
  14. Radar

    Radar Active Member

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    They present a story that's all. Just because something is old does not make it true.
     
  15. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    The Dead Sea scrolls were carbon-dated and proven to be authentic, Radar, some dating back to more than 100 years before Jesus peace be upon him.

    "The scrolls and scroll fragments recovered in the Qumran environs represent a voluminous body of Jewish documents, a veritable "library", dating from the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E.

    Unquestionably, the "library," which is the greatest manuscript find of the twentieth century, demonstrates the rich literary activity of Second Temple Period Jewry and sheds insight into centuries pivotal to both Judaism and Christianity."

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.htm
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Stop babbling. What did they hide in 325? Where is your evidence?

    Neither you nor he can present a single cogent argument linking the Teacher of Righteousness to Jesus. Nor can you do so.

    You are not debating - you're preaching, and you're doing a pathetically poor job at it. If you want to continue your silly little narrative, please be respectful enough to move to the area set aside for Islamic apologetics rather than continue to pollute a debate forum.
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So were the woolly mammoths. What does this have to do with Jesus?
     
  18. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    At The Council of Nicea there were many Gospels other than the four Gospels that became official.

    Evidence: Plenty. See for example the following:

    "One of the principal tasks was to decide which books should constitute the 'Holy Book' of the new religion, which would be the Bible. Therefore, some of the Gospels had to go, and some of the material in the remaining Gospels had to be edited. "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A307487
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Cordoba, go to the page you referenced and then select What is h2g2? where you'll learn, for example ...
    h2g2 is an unconventional guide to life, the universe and everything, an encyclopaedic project where entries are written by people from all over the world. h2g2 was launched in April 1999, and the BBC took over the running of the site in February 2001 as part of our drive to develop new and innovative online services.

    The Guide is written by visitors to the website - people like you - and already it has thousands of entries on all sorts of subjects. The result is a living, breathing guide that's constantly being updated and revised, driven forward by the very people who use it.​
    In other words, any fool can write just about any nonsense they wish. That you would point to this as evidence is a clear demonstration of the quality of your arguments. You continue to embarrass yourself.
     
  20. Cordoba

    Cordoba Well-Known Member

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    That is a BBC site, Deut.

    Are you really suggesting that at The Council of Nicea there were only 4 Gospels?
     
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