The Real Circumcision Questions - At Least in My View

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The goal was to find out exactly what several people mentioned. What they would be willing to do, outside of a discussion on a forum, to see circumcision banned/outlawed/limited/etc. Several people have answered it and I marked their answers as informative or useful.

Yes, but to what end? Why was that a question you wanted answers to?

 

[Clara Tea]

We should first explain where circumcision comes from and why its imposed upon children without their consent. "The universal ancient rite of circumcision was an outgrowth of the cult of partial sacrifice; it was purely sacrificial, no thought of hygiene being attached thereto. Men were circumcised; women had their ears pierced."

I suppose that the full sacrifice people didn't procreate, and therefore didn't pass down their beliefs.

 

[Clara Tea]

No, they really are not. I was only speaking of halal and kosher butchering. At one time, that was the most humane way to slaughter cows, sheep, and goats. That is no longer the case. Videos of the process are very unsettling. Don't listen to just their propaganda. All butchers drain the blood from a carcass. They were not unique in that. And cutting the throats of animals that are alive and aware is no longer the quickest most humane way to kill them.

You can see and taste the blood in modern non-halal/nonkosher butchered meats. Meat, drained of blood, tastes better and lasts longer without rotting. The dietary laws and culinary practices (salting, smoking, canning, etc.) came about because food rotted (before the advent of modern refrigeration, in desert areas where ice was not available).

What are these other methods of slaughtering that you mention? Websites to show me?

Recently, legislation has passed in California regarding human meat. Horses, noble symbols of the old west, intelligent creatures who were not only transportation, but pals to their owners who could be trained to do stunts, were no longer allowed to be butchered. Chickens could not spend their entire lives in coops so low that they could not raise their heads. It is still common practice to put roosters in low containers because it prevents them from crowing in the morning which disturbs sleep. Chickens must now be allowed some time to roam freely in a yard.

So, modern meats are raised inhumanely in some places.

At least Jews tried to make meat preparation as humane and clean as possible. Jewish dietary laws have kept them somewhat safe from diseases for thousands of years.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes, but to what end? Why was that a question you wanted answers to?

Because I want to know. Am not allowed to ask a question of this nature and simply view what the answers are?

 

[Clara Tea]

Citation needed. I am betting that you misunderstood a quote. Or possibly it was a quote out of context. At best I am betting that he used the qualifier "may be".

Neil deGrasse Tyson says it's 'very likely' the universe is a simulation - ExtremeTech

There is one (of many) citations.

All you have to do is Google the information and you will find a lot of information about Tyson's virtual world statement.

Incidentally, President Biden just passed a bill through Congress, and now it is a law, that the internet will only allow truth.

Since the existence (or acts of) God cannot be proven or disproven, statements about religion cannot be proven to be truthful. Therefore, discussion of religion on the internet has been destroyed.

Since free speech allows us to practice free religion, and free speech has been permanently and irreparably damaged, freedom of religion appears to be a thing of the past.

Hmmm.....no more free speech.....no more free religion.

My friend liked a posting of a unicorn on facebook. A unicorn is not a real creature, it is a make believe creature. Therefore, it cannot be posted on the internet. My friend (the same one), posted a picture of a purple chicken, and she said that it was not a real purple chicken, but an altered picture, and Facebook kicked her off for doing it. If we can't post a picture of a purple chicken (because we think that it is beautiful, what chance do we have to have free religion?

Are we to have the religion that the government tells us to have?

Are we to have no religion at all? Atheism?

The Cancel Culture has kicked President Donald Trump off of Facebook and Twitter.

Recently, in order to restore free speech, Elon Musk (who had been Cancel Cultured, himself) bought a sizeable share of Twitter, in order to have at least someplace that he could post. He paid hundreds of billions of dollars to do that. This new law will circumvent that freedom that Musk sought. It appears that the Cancel Culture is winning, and the American way is losing. The Revolutionary War was fought against King George III, King of the British Empire. Brave patriots fought and died to secure the blessings of freedom for themselves and their posterity. Look how blithely we throw away those sacred rights for the sake of veracity (if that is, indeed, what we will get).

It is my observation that those who subvert free speech often propagandize to bolster their own feeble positions, so they promote lies and distortions.

Think of how many lies President W. Bush could have told if he had the power to squelsh free speech. He had tried to reinstate sedition laws prior to his debate with Senator John Kerry (running for the presidency between W. Bush's first and second terms). That would have effectively prevented Kerry from mentioning any wrongdoing of W. Bush (illegal wars against peaceful nations, torture camps, etc). No mention of war crimes? That is not a way to run an election or free nation.

 

[Clara Tea]

Slightly easier to teach children how to clean themselves properly, and it's mainly only the USA and their medical professionals who claim any advantage as to circumcision. Most elsewhere (especially in Europe), and who are not influenced by religion, will not see any advantages in carrying out such procedures. So mainly, just being pointless, besides not being consensual by any child. Unless your principles are easily swayed by historical precedence and not reason.

There are plenty of priests eager to clean them.

But, cleaning regularly or not, more people get infections because they (or their male sex partner) didn't get circumcized.

 

[Clara Tea]

Plenty of religious practices are nothing short of insane.
Like Aztec human sacrifices.



If that is the case, then today these things are completely and utterly obsolete as we have far better ways to check food for quality standards and people far better qualified then rabbi's to do these checks.
We also have MUCH higher standards (required and regulated by law) then anything we had before.

The discussion wasn't about Aztecs. Granted, playing basketball with severed human heads was a bit unusual (but everyone needs a hobby).

I am concerned, noting Hitler's Nazis, and the vast numbers of antisemites (before and after Hitler) who pick on Jews, that this issue of circumcision, and alleged cruelty (which was always intended to be humane and not cruel) of slaughter food animals, was targeted to Jews to somehow make them different than other people or worse than other people.

It is easy for a sequestered group that has different practices and look different (orthodox don't trim the corners of their heads so have long hair on their sideburns), to be picked on and vicltimized.

I hope to oppose bigotry whereever I can.

 

[Clara Tea]

Because I want to know. Am not allowed to ask a question of this nature and simply view what the answers are?

I understand the query about why you asked about circumcision. I, too, am worried that Jews are picked on. They traditionally have taken the brunt of abuse for thousands of years, and I hope to do whatever I can to minimize that abuse and stand up for them.

 

[Colt]

I suppose that the full sacrifice people didn't procreate, and therefore didn't pass down their beliefs.

Sacrifice evolved over time with the evolution of religion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I understand the query about why you asked about circumcision. I, too, am worried that Jews are picked on. They traditionally have taken the brunt of abuse for thousands of years, and I hope to do whatever I can to minimize that abuse and stand up for them.

I will be honest. My reasoning was just what I asked - I simply want to know to what lengths, outside of a forum discussion, people plan on going to ban/limit/outlaw/etc. circumcision. I don't live in America or Europe so what ever laws they pass don't affect me here in the Middle East.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because I want to know.

And why do you want to know?

Am not allowed to ask a question of this nature and simply view what the answers are?

Sure... just like I'm allowed to ask you why.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I will be honest. My reasoning was just what I asked - I simply want to know to what lengths, outside of a forum discussion, people plan on going to ban/limit/outlaw/etc. circumcision. I don't live in America or Europe so what ever laws they pass don't affect me here in the Middle East.

But that wasn't what you asked.

Your OP asked what people are willing to do, not what people are planning to do.

There's a lot of stuff that I would be fine supporting if I thought it had a chance of success, but am not actually planning to do because I don't think it would succeed.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But that wasn't what you asked.

Your OP asked what people are willing to do, not what people are planning to do.

There's a lot of stuff that I would be fine supporting if I thought it had a chance of success, but am not actually planning to do because I don't think it would succeed.

Willing and planning for me are the same thing. That is why I added the statement, outside of this forum. I.e. if someone is only interested in debating on a forum that is one thing. If someone is willing to do something or planning something beyond a forum that is another. At least, in my personal view.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And why do you want to know?

Because I find it good to know.

Sure... just like I'm allowed to ask you why.

You are and I answered.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There are plenty of priests eager to clean them.

But, cleaning regularly or not, more people get infections because they (or their male sex partner) didn't get circumcized.

Nah, I don't believe that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can see and taste the blood in modern non-halal/nonkosher butchered meats. Meat, drained of blood, tastes better and lasts longer without rotting. The dietary laws and culinary practices (salting, smoking, canning, etc.) came about because food rotted (before the advent of modern refrigeration, in desert areas where ice was not available).

What are these other methods of slaughtering that you mention? Websites to show me?

Recently, legislation has passed in California regarding human meat. Horses, noble symbols of the old west, intelligent creatures who were not only transportation, but pals to their owners who could be trained to do stunts, were no longer allowed to be butchered. Chickens could not spend their entire lives in coops so low that they could not raise their heads. It is still common practice to put roosters in low containers because it prevents them from crowing in the morning which disturbs sleep. Chickens must now be allowed some time to roam freely in a yard.

So, modern meats are raised inhumanely in some places.

At least Jews tried to make meat preparation as humane and clean as possible. Jewish dietary laws have kept them somewhat safe from diseases for thousands of years.

Nope. You can't. Where do you get that nonsense from?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Neil deGrasse Tyson says it's 'very likely' the universe is a simulation - ExtremeTech

There is one (of many) citations.

All you have to do is Google the information and you will find a lot of information about Tyson's virtual world statement.

Incidentally, President Biden just passed a bill through Congress, and now it is a law, that the internet will only allow truth.

Since the existence (or acts of) God cannot be proven or disproven, statements about religion cannot be proven to be truthful. Therefore, discussion of religion on the internet has been destroyed.

Since free speech allows us to practice free religion, and free speech has been permanently and irreparably damaged, freedom of religion appears to be a thing of the past.

Hmmm.....no more free speech.....no more free religion.

My friend liked a posting of a unicorn on facebook. A unicorn is not a real creature, it is a make believe creature. Therefore, it cannot be posted on the internet. My friend (the same one), posted a picture of a purple chicken, and she said that it was not a real purple chicken, but an altered picture, and Facebook kicked her off for doing it. If we can't post a picture of a purple chicken (because we think that it is beautiful, what chance do we have to have free religion?

Are we to have the religion that the government tells us to have?

Are we to have no religion at all? Atheism?

The Cancel Culture has kicked President Donald Trump off of Facebook and Twitter.

Recently, in order to restore free speech, Elon Musk (who had been Cancel Cultured, himself) bought a sizeable share of Twitter, in order to have at least someplace that he could post. He paid hundreds of billions of dollars to do that. This new law will circumvent that freedom that Musk sought. It appears that the Cancel Culture is winning, and the American way is losing. The Revolutionary War was fought against King George III, King of the British Empire. Brave patriots fought and died to secure the blessings of freedom for themselves and their posterity. Look how blithely we throw away those sacred rights for the sake of veracity (if that is, indeed, what we will get).

It is my observation that those who subvert free speech often propagandize to bolster their own feeble positions, so they promote lies and distortions.

Think of how many lies President W. Bush could have told if he had the power to squelsh free speech. He had tried to reinstate sedition laws prior to his debate with Senator John Kerry (running for the presidency between W. Bush's first and second terms). That would have effectively prevented Kerry from mentioning any wrongdoing of W. Bush (illegal wars against peaceful nations, torture camps, etc). No mention of war crimes? That is not a way to run an election or free nation.

He does not seem to make that claim in your link. Did you make the mistake of only reading the headline?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Willing and planning for me are the same thing. That is why I added the statement, outside of this forum. I.e. if someone is only interested in debating on a forum that is one thing. If someone is willing to do something or planning something beyond a forum that is another. At least, in my personal view.

I'm willing to try to put out a car fire with an extinguisher today. I've done it before.

I'm not planning to put out a car fire with an extinguisher today because this is a rare event. It's only happened a couple of times in my life so far, so it almost certainly won't happen on my drive home today.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'm willing to try to put out a car fire with an extinguisher today. I've done it before.

I'm not planning to put out a car fire with an extinguisher today because this is a rare event. It's only happened a couple of times in my life so far, so it almost certainly won't happen on my drive home today.

So, for me that lets me know how far you will take such a situation, beyond a forum. Thanks.

 

[John D. Brey]

Since the question about whether circumcision, of babies, has been asked several times in several different threads I have a different set of questions in this regard that I think hasn't really been addressed.

For those who say that it should be outlawed, regardless of your reasons, how far are you willing to go to make your view the reality, outside of a forum discussion?

1. In your local environment.
2. In your national environment.
3. Internationally.

How do you see your success rate being in let's say one to two generations from now?

In my opinion, Jews have been practicing brit milah for far too long for modern secularized thinkers to attempt to question or force their viewpoints on them.

Nevertheless, Judaism empowers such attacks when their own sages make what I consider asinine and wrongheaded statements about rituals whose primary purpose is always spiritual and not medical or temporal.

For instance Maimonides stated that in his opinion one of the purposes of circumcision is to limit sexual desire in the Jewish male. In my opinion this statement is not only wrongheaded but criminal so far as being stated by a Jew of no small influence.

Similarly, the Talmud, with other Jews, impies that metzitzah b'peh is a quasi-medical procedure to stop the bleeding by suction. Not only is this medically incorrect, but the implication that any decree from God has as its primary purpose a medical use is problematic in the extreme.

In my opinion, the secularization of Judaism, by some of Judaism's own sages, invites secular non-Jews to stick their noses and other organs in where they don't belong. If it were up to me Judaism would employ nose mohels with sharp izmels to remove the nosy foreskins in the secular community.



John