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The rape of Dinah?

The JW view is that it is a moral story illustrating "bad association," that Dinah was raped for associating with loose women who were not Gods people and that sexual exploitation can be avoided by associating only with those who uphold Gods high standards.
What is the significance of the story for you?

Um...not that. Yeah, Dinah probably shouldn't have been in the city, but as the book of Job points out, bad things can happen to good people.

In regards to whether it was consensual: It's possible that Dinah enjoyed it and the sons of Israel were outraged that she had essentially been made into a prostitute. But if Dinah had consented to this, why would she tell her father/brothers? It's much more reasonable to get Shechem to ask Jacob for her. Imagine Dinah saying, "Hey Dad; I just got laid by this totally awesome guy. He wants to marry me. Thoughts?" I don't think any intelligent person would do that. And Shechem wouldn't tell the family, either: "Yo, Gad. I just slept with your sister. What are the chances of getting your father to approve our marriage?"

There's virtually no other way for Jacob to learn of it. What's most likely is that Dinah came home shaking, and sooner or later she told her family she had been raped by a neighboring prince. Not only is it a more probable explanation; it also makes Simeon and Levi's joint genocide seem more justified.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
Unless, of course, it does not.

While the consensus has clearly been that Dinah was raped, it appears that this is now being seriously reconsidered - perhaps one of the consequences of women being given a voice.

It was some really bizarre feminist rewrite.

It reminds me of those who try to include jesus into everything.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
It says וישכב אתה ויענה, which may in fact be an idiom for rape, but it might also conceivably not. Literally it's simply, "he lay with her and he afflicted her."

Now, I personally tend to think that it probably is idiomatic for rape, if for no other reasons than it is consistent with the story, and that I think it stretches the bounds of pshat interpretation to suppose that the two terms are not linked as part of the same unit of meaning, since generally speaking the phrasing indicates a causal progression.

But while I may think that the pshat is definitely rape, there is no reason whatsoever that one might not make a midrash that tells the story differently, by playing with the meanings of those words. Classic midrashim have often played with language in far more radical ways than this would take.

And since any midrash the text will bear is potentially a valid reading of the text, there is ample room for Jay's drash above.



As I noted, the text says וישכב אתה ויענה, and the phrasing is a typical construction indicating a causal progression or a pair of ideas linked in parallelism. Also, the typical expressing of consensual sex in the Tanach is וישכב עמה, where the word עמה indicates "with her," implying "together with her," or "along with her;" but this says וישכב אתה, which is quite different. The use of אתה is directional, indicating something done to someone, rather that something done with someone. And, in case that were not clear enough, the action is followed with ויענה, which is "afflicted her" or "tormented her," or "humiliated her," but in any case is clearly something to do with causing pain. This is either a parallelism, with the ויענה reflecting and amplifying the sense of וישכב אתה, or it is causally linked-- וישכב אתה, which resulted in ויענה.

Plus, there's the greater context: if he didn't rape her, and the ya'anuha refers to some other kind of pain not associated directly with the sex, why is it that Shimon and Levi-- clearly quick to anger and not given to holding back on their responses-- take vengeance on Shechem for "treating their sister like a whore," rather than taking out their rage on Dinah for running away to be with some man their family disapproves of (not that I would condone such a response on their part, only that it would be a typical and common response to such a situation from the culture of that time and place-- after all, think of Yehudah's first reaction when he finds out that Tamar is pregnant). They clearly feel that it is Dinah who has been wronged, and not Dinah who has done wrong-- and this is a time and place where men were pretty quick to blame women for things and to violently repress any rebellious sexuality women displayed. Nor, in confronting Shimon and Levi, does Yakov protest that it was Dinah who did wrong by running away: he merely expresses anger and anxiety that the decimation of Shechem was politically imprudent.

Like I said to Mike, I think you can absolutely make a midrash that Dinah wasn't raped, and/or that her relations with Shechem were consensual, and that midrash, as a midrash, would be a valid reading of the text. But I don't think you can make a very convincing argument for the pshat of the story to be that she wasn't raped.

You left out the beginning of veyikach. He took her.

He raped her.

I disagree with the feminist rewrite. It has no actual basis.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But if Dinah had consented to this, why would she tell her father/brothers? It's much more reasonable to get Shechem to ask Jacob for her. Imagine Dinah saying, "Hey Dad; I just got laid by this totally awesome guy. He wants to marry me. Thoughts?" I don't think any intelligent person would do that. And Shechem wouldn't tell the family, either: "Yo, Gad. I just slept with your sister. What are the chances of getting your father to approve our marriage?"

There's virtually no other way for Jacob to learn of it
. What's most likely is that Dinah came home shaking, and sooner or later she told her family she had been raped by a neighboring prince. Not only is it a more probable explanation; it also makes Simeon and Levi's joint genocide seem more justified.

Not so. I cannot comment in the blue thread, but I can ask: Will you please read Genesis 34:1-5 again?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
You left out the beginning of veyikach. He took her.

He raped her.

I disagree with the feminist rewrite. It has no actual basis.

ויקח simply does not always mean "rape." Sometimes-- if not most often-- it is used in regard to marriage, as well, which leaves more room for the midrash Jay mentioned, and others. The more relevant and indicative language is as I indicated above.
 

Horrorble

Well-Known Member
Um...not that. Yeah, Dinah probably shouldn't have been in the city, but as the book of Job points out, bad things can happen to good people.

In regards to whether it was consensual: It's possible that Dinah enjoyed it and the sons of Israel were outraged that she had essentially been made into a prostitute. But if Dinah had consented to this, why would she tell her father/brothers? It's much more reasonable to get Shechem to ask Jacob for her. Imagine Dinah saying, "Hey Dad; I just got laid by this totally awesome guy. He wants to marry me. Thoughts?" I don't think any intelligent person would do that. And Shechem wouldn't tell the family, either: "Yo, Gad. I just slept with your sister. What are the chances of getting your father to approve our marriage?"

There's virtually no other way for Jacob to learn of it. What's most likely is that Dinah came home shaking, and sooner or later she told her family she had been raped by a neighboring prince. Not only is it a more probable explanation; it also makes Simeon and Levi's joint genocide seem more justified.

Is a woman a prostitute even if she has free consensual sex?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
ויקח simply does not always mean "rape." Sometimes-- if not most often-- it is used in regard to marriage, as well, which leaves more room for the midrash Jay mentioned, and others. The more relevant and indicative language is as I indicated above.
Examples please?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Plus, there's the greater context: if he didn't rape her, and the ya'anuha refers to some other kind of pain not associated directly with the sex, why is it that Shimon and Levi-- clearly quick to anger and not given to holding back on their responses-- take vengeance on Shechem for "treating their sister like a whore," rather than taking out their rage on Dinah for running away to be with some man their family disapproves of (not that I would condone such a response on their part, only that it would be a typical and common response to such a situation from the culture of that time and place-- after all, think of Yehudah's first reaction when he finds out that Tamar is pregnant).
First, from The Torah: A women's Commentary:
he took her and lay her down and raped her.

Interpretive debates about the story and its import revolve around the meaning of the word innah, her rendered as "rape." The meaning of the other verbs as well is both affected by, and in turn influences, how one interprets the actions involved in this episode.

Deuteronomy 22 contains several laws about sexual offenses with terminology similar to what appears here. From the usage in Deuteronomy on can conclude that innah means "violate," not "rape" (22:23-24). The expression "he took hold of her" is apparently the one used for rape in Deuteronomy (22:25) as well in the Tamar/Amnon story (II Samuel 13:14) -- and it is not used here in the present verse. Consequently, the word 'innah' should not be translated as rape, and what happened to Dinah certainly should not to be understood as an act of rape in the modern sense of the word. Rather, the term demonstrates in this passage, as elsewhere, a downward movement in a social sense, meaning to "debase" or "humiliate" (Genesis 16:6). Though an affront to the woman's family, the term does not carry with it the psychological and emotional implications for the woman that the contemporary notion of rape suggests. In this particular text, the woman has no voice, and the narrator has no interest in whether or not she consented to the sexual act. Bear in mind that according to ancient Near Eastern mores, Dinah would have been disgraced even if she had consented. [pp. 190-191]
Second, you speak of
take vengeance on Shechem for "treating their sister like a whore," rather than taking out their rage on Dinah ...
but treating someone like a whore is hardly the same as raping her. Furthermore, much has been made of Shechem's protestations of love for Dinah and, as has been noted elsewhere, rape is a crime of hatred rather than love.

Finally, two points about not "taking out their rage on Dinah:"
  1. The failure to do so is no less surprising if we assume consent. See, also, here.
  2. There is ample midrash seeking to blame Dinah for what happened.
Parenthetically, from the reference in point 1 immediately above:
Frymer-Krensky points out that the word inna follows the word "lay with" which would indicate that rape was in fact not the case. The order of the words suggests that disgrace followed their laying together. She notes that had it been a case of rape the disgrace (inna) would have preceded their laying together.
You end by claiming victory, i.e., ...
But I don't think you can make a very convincing argument for the pshat of the story to be that she wasn't raped.
I do not insist that you find the above 'convincing' but I do suspect that others will find it worthy of further consideration and, in time, perhaps you will as well.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The word defile;

abase self, defile
A primitive root (possibly rather ident. With anah through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitive or intransitive (in various applications, as follows) -- abase self, afflict(-ion, self), answer (by mistake for anah), chasten self, deal hardly with, defile, exercise, force, gentleness, humble (self), hurt, ravish, sing (by mistake for anah), speak (by mistake for anah), submit self, weaken, X in any wise.

see HEBREW anah

http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6031.htm
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
What I object to is that the Torah means what it means.

It should mean the same to a woman as it does a man.

When the feminist site says a "woman's commentary", it really means a feminist woman.

It should never be rewritten just to please feminist agenda.

It's the same thing as christians adding jesus in just because they want to.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am talking about examples form the Torah.

It does mean to take.

It said the prince took her. It doesn't infe or imply, that it was consensual.

Yes, examples from Torah. The link will give you every example.
 
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