WonderingWorrier
Active Member
A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
Proverbs 14:6
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The Quranic narrative about Jesus's crucifixion, what is said in the text??
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
Proverbs 14:6
firedragon
Veteran Member
It doesnt say anything of the sort WW.
But thanks for the reference. Have a great day.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you said: "No. It says "Shubbiha" which is "mabneeuinil majhooli", so it is not like "it appeared to people" which absolutely wrong tense you are using. It is "someone made it seem like it", its not "just an occurrence". Hope you understand."
I am not seeing a tense difference. I believe I see you adding "someone" and "made" to a word that means appeared. In the Biblical text there is no someone making it appear so that translation would be inconsistent with the Biblical text and negate the whole validity of the Qu'ran.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe only a death of the body is necessary for prophecy to be fulfilled. It is only necessary for the body to be dead for there to be a resurrection.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that goes to show how worthless Hadiths are.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
Exactly how does it show that?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Its absolutely contradicting the bible.
Anyway, about the meaning you are making huge blunders muffled.
Honestly, if God made someone look like Isa (a) to die (and I been aware of these hadiths for a long time), he deceived the masses for nothing. It has no purpose.
The best explanation is that the Gospels are not wrong in what they say and it's interpretation of the information there. See also when Musa (a) and Elyas (a) met with Isa (a) in the Bible and the many discussions about how Elyas (a) was there, and the reason is because he is the Guide between Mohammad (s) and Isa (a) and Quran "and for every people there is a guide".
Elyas (a) and Yahya (a) (John) discussion, is because someone has to occupy the position of the path and the holy spirit and be the comforter. There is two comforters, one that has not come to this world yet (Mohammad (s)) prophesy, and the other is the one who when Isa (a) ascends, will send to the disciples, which was Elyas (a).
Isa (a) showed, because Elyas (a) was the only alive, that since Isa (a) was ascending and leaving them, to return one day, it definitely meant that the Jewish Prophecy that he would come with the anointed king (last one) from David's (a) offspring, was true. To emphasize this, he said Yahya (a) is like Elyas (a) but Yahya (a) is dead... and although he prepared the way... this is showing that Elyas (A) has to come back with Isa (a) and Isa (A) has to show Elyas (a) is here, and that people recognize Elyas (A) is the guide.
There is a detailed version of this, but hint in Quran is "And Zakariya, and Yahya (successor of previous), and Isa (successor of previous), and Elyas (what's he doing here? it's because he came back to suceed but hidden from public!), and all of them among the righteous."
And so from this perspective, if he was put in the grave (say he was), did Isa (a) ever leave and stop being alive on earth, then who was the position of the "and for every people there is a guide" during the 3 days?
3 days, it looked like he died, but he didn't, and hence he was not dead nor crucified, but was alive.
Then later, God rose him and he sent Elyas who is instance of the holy spirit. The comforter to come who has not yet is Mohammad (s).
This is clear to me but to everyone their own way I guess! Let's throw gospels all out and all of them lying, because of a hadith I suppose!
The best explanation is that the Gospels are not wrong in what they say and it's interpretation of the information there. See also when Musa (a) and Elyas (a) met with Isa (a) in the Bible and the many discussions about how Elyas (a) was there, and the reason is because he is the Guide between Mohammad (s) and Isa (a) and Quran "and for every people there is a guide".
Elyas (a) and Yahya (a) (John) discussion, is because someone has to occupy the position of the path and the holy spirit and be the comforter. There is two comforters, one that has not come to this world yet (Mohammad (s)) prophesy, and the other is the one who when Isa (a) ascends, will send to the disciples, which was Elyas (a).
Isa (a) showed, because Elyas (a) was the only alive, that since Isa (a) was ascending and leaving them, to return one day, it definitely meant that the Jewish Prophecy that he would come with the anointed king (last one) from David's (a) offspring, was true. To emphasize this, he said Yahya (a) is like Elyas (a) but Yahya (a) is dead... and although he prepared the way... this is showing that Elyas (A) has to come back with Isa (a) and Isa (A) has to show Elyas (a) is here, and that people recognize Elyas (A) is the guide.
There is a detailed version of this, but hint in Quran is "And Zakariya, and Yahya (successor of previous), and Isa (successor of previous), and Elyas (what's he doing here? it's because he came back to suceed but hidden from public!), and all of them among the righteous."
And so from this perspective, if he was put in the grave (say he was), did Isa (a) ever leave and stop being alive on earth, then who was the position of the "and for every people there is a guide" during the 3 days?
3 days, it looked like he died, but he didn't, and hence he was not dead nor crucified, but was alive.
Then later, God rose him and he sent Elyas who is instance of the holy spirit. The comforter to come who has not yet is Mohammad (s).
This is clear to me but to everyone their own way I guess! Let's throw gospels all out and all of them lying, because of a hadith I suppose!
firedragon
Veteran Member
The Quran does not say "God made it appear so". It just says "Shubbiha", which means "it was made to appear as if".
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
It is as said in the Quran:
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes.
Then (there will be) the Companions of the Right Hand;- What will be the Companions of the Right Hand?
And the Companions of the Left Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Left Hand?
56:7-9
Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path. 25:44
Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning). 7:179
Three classes: Cattle - Goats - Sheep.
And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17
The desert is also one of the three classes:
For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. Exodus 19:2
As the goat is in the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22
The cross:
Earth - Cattle - Goats - Sheep
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Three Classes: Corn - Oil - Wine.
Listen carefully: Jesus turned water into wine.
Think about it.
Consider the burden of the cross:
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:2
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23
Consider the place of the feet:
Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? Isaiah 66:1
And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy 28:23
Consider the place of the hands on the cross:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:33
Please look carefully at these four positions thinking about where the feet and hands are.
Earth - Cattle - Goats - Sheep.
Now consider the eyes.
Are you able to see the fire in them?
firedragon
Veteran Member
It doesnt say that.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I think it does.
As it says in the Quran:
"It is He Who sendeth down rain from the skies: with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green (crops), out of which We produce grain, heaped up (at harvest); out of the date-palm and its sheaths (or spathes) (come) clusters of dates hanging low and near: and (then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are signs for people who believe" 6:99
Three classes:
Pomegranate - Olive - Grape.
The bible has info about the oliveyards, vineyards, the oil and the wine.
Including details about the rivers running as oil, and wine flowing from the mountain.
Because they are at different levels:
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The Qur'an is not relevant to your claim WW. Hope you understand.
None of the verses you quoted say what you said. Anyway, that discussion has run its course. Thanks a lot for engaging.