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Featured The Quranic narrative about Jesus's crucifixion, what is said in the text??

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There is a verse in the Quran which clearly states that Jesus the Messiah was not crucified. It specifically goes like this.

    Chapter 4. Verse 153 onwards or somewhere there about.

    1. It is addressing the ahlul kithab or the people of the book.
    2. It speaks of some breaking the covenant, and killing prophets and specifically "rejectors" are rebuked. Except the ones who did not transgress.
    3. Refers to them saying a "great falsehood" about Mary.
    4. Then in the verse 157 it says that some claimed they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of God.
    5. And it says clearly that "they had not killed him, nor crucified him".
    6. follows with the statement "it was only made to appear as if they had".

    Note the last statement. Number 6 above. It was made to appear so. This "Appear" when written in English can be perceived as "visually appear". Well, it doesnt mean that. The English word Appear is appropriate because it does not mean a visual appearance. But some could easily take it a visual appearance as if God intentionally made it visually appear as if Jesus was crucified. But the funny thing is, very few seem to notice that it doesnt specify who made it appear so. And the word there is Shubbiha which means "something that seems like something" if you understand what that means. The word "Appear" is the easiest one word I suppose to replace that sentence.

    Let's say someone cooks up a controversy. A story cooked up to put wool over peoples eyes. That could exactly be what this verse means. Thus it could very well be that people started telling this story that Jesus was crucified, and others believed it. So in a nutshell, people claimed they had killed Jesus, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but was made to appear as if they had indeed killed him or/and crucified him.

    This post is made purely from a linguistic point of view. Purely textual. Nothing with an Islamic, theological-belief's point of view. This thread is opened because this particular fact about "appearance" was discussed in another thread and I thought it is best to open a new one for this topic if anyone needs to say something or has any clarification. Linguistically.

    Peace.
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Salam

    I agree with you linguistically but given that the Quran is commenting on this, I believe if it was a fabrication, it would have been explicitly stated to be that. As it's clarifying the truth of the matter, the word "appear" although linguistically can mean what you said, best means, it appeared to people he was killed and crucified but it didn't happen.

    Like I've explained before, the Gospels is best interpreted in a way that says it was a feign death.

    Moses got the Torah after he delivered the messages of God to Pharaoh.

    The gospels are revealed AFTER the appearance of his death or the feign death to each disciple and paraphrased in different ways to interpret each other by God to Jesus to disciples to humanity. If it was just say this whole thing was a fabrication which would be a type of appearance, it would say that explicitly and clearly, but the word appearance I would say is best described that it appeared like that to them.
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It does say that they had not killed or crucified Him.
    Is there a significance in how it was made to appear that He was crucified?
    Interestingly it appears to be wanting to agree with the historical claims in the Bible and in secular history but deny the actual truth of the event at the same time.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    No. It says "Shubbiha" which is "mabneeuinil majhooli", so it is not like "it appeared to people" which absolutely wrong tense you are using. It is "someone made it seem like it", its not "just an occurrence". Hope you understand.

    This has nothing to do with any Gospel.

    This has nothing to do with Moses.

    If you wish to discuss if the Gospels (presuming you mean the four canonical gospels in the NT) were "revealed" or "not", I will open a new thread. What do you say? Would you like me to tag you in a new thread?

    Salam.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    There is nothing in the Quran on "how". Again, you seem to be using the word appear to mean a visual appearance. Which is already addressed in the OP.

    Do you wish to discuss this "actual truth" of the event? I mean in terms of historical records and whatever you refer to as "actual truth"? No problem. I will open a new thread and tag you there so that it could be done independently and comprehensively.
     
  6. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I know what you mean. The ambiguity/unclarity in the appearance was that it was a feign death.

    To me, where Quran doesn't explicitly refute part of the Gospels or Torah or books between, we got to accept it.

    In this case, given that God knows what is in the Gospels, I believe he would have said fabrication if it was that. The appearance (in unclear ambiguous way) is due to it being a feign death - and that is the best explanation as it confirms the Gospels but in a way that shatters all the myth around trinity and that non-sense.

    Trinity is no doubt invented to bring in the holy spirit concept way out of context of how it been discussed in the books before the gospels, so to make ambiguous the prophecy concerning Mohammad (s) which is so clear in the Gospels.
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    It doesnt say "feign death". That is interpolation. Again, it is not a visual appearance the Quran is speaking of. I thought it was said in the OP, and again in the previous response.

    Thats not relevant.

    Not relevant. If you wish to discuss if the Gospels (presuming you mean the four canonical gospels in the NT) were "revealed" or "not", I will open a new thread. What do you say? Would you like me to tag you in a new thread?
     
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I didn't say the word implies that, as I said, I agree with your linguistic point.

    It is relevant, because it's commenting on this belief Christians have. If it was a fabrication, the word fabricated by some would be best. God is clear and doesn't play word games. Whether we want to listen to the clarity of his words or not is up to us.


    Sure you can an open a thread. I believe Gospels can't be human made for similar reasons I believe Quran can't be. Both are from God from my viewpoint except Quran is without fault while Gospels have some changes. Also, there isn't just the canonical gospels I would say Quran confirms infancy Gospels as well.
     
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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Please refer to the OP.

    OK.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Were the four canonical gospels in the New Testament revealed?
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I do not believe the Biblical text supports that view. I also do not believe the Qu'ran supports that view. I believe that is an invention by Muslims trying to figure out what the Qu'ran is saying and getting it wrong.
     
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  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it was never "made" to appear that way. It just happened that way.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you have been inconsistent originally you said it meant something that appears to be somethin which is consistent with an occurrence. I have no idea where you got the other phrase from. Are you trying to get the Qu'ran to provide false testimony?
     
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  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Rephrase that to make some sense Muffled and we shall see. Rather than saying vague statements, like other phrase, something, an occurrence, meant something, I believe, etc etc, make some specific objections with reference to the exact statement you wish to address. I know that you are trying to make it a hypocrisy, but even that could probably be done objectively.

    Thanks.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I do not believe this, I do not believe that, muslims are that, I am this, Quran is something else, everyone is getting it wrong, are vague phrases used by someone who has no clue what to say but intends to say something.

    Try to study what is said, and make an informed discussion if you can.
     
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  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The gospel cannot be interpreted as far as I know, if Jesus death was feigned. It Jesus death was feigned then the gospel is denied because the gospel needs the sacrificial death of Jesus. A feigned death also denies the truth of prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures about the Messiah and what would happen to Him.
    So Muhammad, who is supposed to be the prophet of the same God of the Jews and of Jesus, denies the gospel of Jesus and God's word in the New and Old Testament.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You are stemming from the premise that the Gospel of Jesus teaches that the sacrificial death of Jesus and the resurrection are absolutely true and is essential theology taught in this "Gospel of Jesus" you are referring to.

    Bahais deny this. They do not believe Jesus's resurrection was a physical resurrection but as someone above had said it was the death and resurrection of the "religion", not Jesus himself.

    What would you have to say about that?
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Different Baha'is have different views of the death and resurrection and they try to conform the gospel story with the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
    To the Baha'i answer that you gave I would say that there was not religion and no cause (using Baha'i speak) until Jesus died and rose again.
    The main point of the gospel message was the sacrificial death of Jesus for our sins, and this can be seen in OT prophecies about the Messiah and what He would do.
    Baha'i and Islam are religions that deny the gospel and ongoing relevance of it for humanity.
    My opinion is that the spirits behind the messages that their prophets received are anti Christ spirits but in saying that I don't want to discredit any devotion to God that the adherents to these religions may have.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Another question. You said "So Muhammad, who is supposed to be the prophet of the same God of the Jews and of Jesus, denies the gospel of Jesus and God's word in the New and Old Testament.".

    So how would you answer the Jews who completely deny what you have said here but are firm believers in the Tanakh? They dont believe any of the so called prophecies refer to Jesus. So since you said "God of the Jews", what is your response to them?
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That most of the Jews rejected their King is another prophecy in the Tanakh which the Jews do not accept.
    Then God brought the destruction of the Temple again and their exile again and they still do not understand why. Jesus is cursed in Judaism.
    It would have been OK if things had gone on like that but Satan is out to confuse people as much as possible with misleading religions and brings others to muddy the waters even more. This has happened with many many religions claiming to be the real Christianity and have the return of Christ as their prophet and etc etc.
    It is not just in the area of religion that the waters have been muddied. These days people even deny that Jesus existed etc etc.
    This is the view I get from the inside anyway.
     
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