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Featured The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    And you'ld be shifting the burden of proof if you do so.

    There is no evidence to warrant / justify belief of the positive claim.

    Go ahead. Shift the burden of proof.
    Won't change the facts.
     
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  2. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    It's the claim of existence that requires evidence.


    Off course.


    :rolleyes:
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's not shift, it's saying, I produced clear signs and proofs. If people want to doubt them, then they should be able to counter claim it and bring speech like it. Simple counter to counter-claim response.
     
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I see, so you were just asking questions to get me to think on my position, is that it? Well... I feel that I effectively answered or addressed all your questions. I have effectively answered to all your points (even if you don't agree). However, note that you did NOT even attempt to answer all of my questions. Remember my question to you asking you to point out what it was I was missing from the OP that you very starkly indicated was the case:
    In this quote, it is obvious that you feel I did not understand the OP when I first responded. What about it did I miss? Deleted by moderator
     
    #104 A Vestigial Mote, Jun 16, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2021
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  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You have not understood the thesis the OP is proposing because you have not asked for it, nor looked at it.

    See, cheap characters generally like to call others "mad" and "psychological". Its just your character. And you will keep demonstrating it.

    Keep going.
     
  6. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Of course it's not a legitimate challenge. Eloquence and the beauty of form are subjective.
     
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  7. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Don't link me to a thread where I'm supposed to go hunt for the answer the my question which may or may not exist in the thread. That is very disrespectful. And incredibly lazy.


    As I said before: your question of if the challenge is fair, CAN NOT BE ANSWERED until you list the objective criteria by which this is to be measured. It is the criteria that will determine if it is "fair" or not.

    So you should list those criteria here.
    In fact, this is so crucial to your OP question that these criteria should have been listed in the OP right from the start.


    So please, list the objective criteria.
    Or alternatively, admit that these criteria don't exist.
     
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  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Eloquence has levels. To see the level of Quran, you have to begin to scratch at it and then see if it's beyond human capability or at least see if anything comes close to it.

    So far I explained a bit of some aspects of verse 2:255 and the first chapter (Al-Fatiha).

    We have to begin somewhere, and so that's what that thread is doing, it's looking at the eloquence signs in Quran.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe it's total subjective, but rather some people are better at detecting it then others, really is what it is.
     
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  10. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I don't need two birds. I need just the one bird that is absolutely essential to be able to even begin formulating an answer to your question in the OP.

    If you can't list any objective criteria, because they don't exist, then just say so.
     
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  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You can take a class on eloquence. Let me know what you think if there is objective criteria or not after that class.
     
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Claims require evidence.

    Can't be done unless objective criteria are established. Otherwise, you are just arguing from subjective opinion. And in that case, clearly Eric Clapton is god.

    What are the criteria that establish "speech" as being from a god as opposed to from humans?
     
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  13. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    For this thread, it does not matter who wrote the plays we attribute to Shakespeare. All that matters is that they are amazing. In my book Shakespeare, Rumi, and many others are truly amazing, and the Quran is pretty mediocre.
     
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  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    The level of eloquence being observed, would help facilitate understanding. That's what that thread is about. And I'm trying to make a cumulative case. We have to start with just scratching the surface approach.
     
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I think this speaks volumes about Quran. Family of Mohammad - most people don't see them in Quran despite clearly in there. Eloquence in Quran far more superior to Rumi works even per Rumi himself, but people are crazy about Rumi and not Quran eloquence. Some hidden enemies and force at work it seems. They don't want us to understand the Quran nor see the family of Mohammad (s) clearly in there.
     
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  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Which is a claim. A claim in need of evidence.
    Lacking such evidence, it can be dismissed at face value.
    Because what is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

    By what criteria would that speech be measured?

    Yes, if we are going to allow arguing devoid of any evidence, then you indeed and up in a pissing contest that goes like this:

    "na-huh!"
    "ya-huh!"
    "not so!"
    "is so!"
    "no!"
    "yes!"
     
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  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    We have a sense that detects eloquence. It's not totally subjective nor totally objective, it's a middle ground, but God can show through that to all humans, signs of eloquence with whatever taste they have in them for it.
     
  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Please. Do you honestly think that this is the first time we hear of this "challenge"?
    I can't speak for others off course, but I would be extremely surprised if @A Vestigial Mote hasn't heard about this a gazillion times before.

    Anyone who's just a little familiar with islamic apologetics, knows about this "challenge".
     
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  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    What are the objective criteria by which this is established?

    By what objective criteria is "eloquence" measured?
    So far, it sounds like it is just about subjective opinion.

    Which would make Eric Clapton a God.
     
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  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Translation: the quran is divine and if you don't agree, then you are just wrong.


    So with that in mind: clearly Eric Clapton is god. And if you don't agree, then that's just because you can't detect what divine music sounds like.



    :rolleyes:
     
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